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Just because the cities in western New York aren't like New York, Boston or Philly doesn't make the Midwestern. Buffalo and Rochester are a lot like Worcester, Springfield, Bridgeport and New Haven.
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Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Yeah, I never understood why people view them as "Midwestern" cities. They are still Northeastern cities, period.
Except post industrial cities are common throughout the Northeast and Midwest. Having similarities to Springfield doesn't make Rochester or Buffalo Northeastern any more than in makes Cleveland Northeastern. Things like the people calling soft drinks pop or using very Midwestern vowels. There are real reasons why people call those cities Midwestern and its not just because they aren't like the bigger cities.
Just look at the counties on an electoral map, say from 2012. There are numerous red counties in upstate NY. New England, on the other hand has only four red counties out of 67. 63 blue counties and 4 red counties. That's a huge difference.
Also, the metro areas in New England are much more overlapped and blended together. In upstate NY, they are more isolated and radial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
To be honest, I couldn't care less about an electoral map, because the reasons that people vote the way they do can be due to a variety of reasons.
Also, many New England counties are big and include multiple cities within them, depending on the state.
You can see it broken down by town here. The dark blue areas are the ones I think are very much like Vermont. You can also see that the Hudson river acts as a pretty rough dividing line from the more liberal rural New England and the rest of the region until you reach the mid-Connecticut border were it blends into the Tri-state area.
Except post industrial cities are common throughout the Northeast and Midwest. Having similarities to Springfield doesn't make Rochester or Buffalo Northeastern any more than in makes Cleveland Northeastern. Things like the people calling soft drinks pop or using very Midwestern vowels. There are real reasons why people call those cities Midwestern and its not just because they aren't like the bigger cities.
You can see it broken down by town here. The dark blue areas are the ones I think are very much like Vermont. You can also see that the Hudson river acts as a pretty rough dividing line from the more liberal rural New England and the rest of the region until you reach the mid-Connecticut border were it blends into the Tri-state area.
Except for Pop, which is really a Buffalo area thing, both Buffalo and Rochester are Northeastern. If we say the Great Lakes region, then that would be more debatable due to some similarities between some cities on a Great Lake between the 2 regions.
I can't see the map, but again, voting patterns don't tell the whole story due to reasons for voting may vary. This doesn't even get into the aspect of how a politician or person could be a moderate Republican or Democrat, which is more in line with what Upstate NY is. You don't find politicians that are far one thing or the other in Upstate NY. Ithaca may arguably be the most liberal city in the state.
Now that I can see the map, I notice that the margin in many rural NY is small and Vermont is essentially carrying rural New England in terms of the "liberal" vote.
On the other hand, Buffalo, Rochester, Ithaca and Oneida have or recently had Black mayors. Dunkirk currently has a mayor of Puerto Rican descent and is the first Hispanic mayor in NY State history, if I'm not mistaken. Syracuse's mayor is a woman, as is Albany's mayor. Rochester's mayor is a Black woman and she is that city's second Black mayor. There are other examples of people of color and women in leadership positions in recent years throughout Upstate NY. So, it isn't like Upstate NY is some strictly rural and "conservative" portion of NYS.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 08-19-2016 at 12:22 PM..
And in Vermont and Western Mass the Democrats are very liberal and the republicans that win are very moderate and can even resemble democrats in more conservative states. Speaking as someone who has lived in both Vermont and the Albany area I can tell you from my own observations which while not perfect made it clear to me that New England is much more liberal in rural areas than NY state.
Except for Pop, which is really a Buffalo area thing, both Buffalo and Rochester are Northeastern. If we say the Great Lakes region, then that would be more debatable due to some similarities between some cities on a Great Lake between the 2 regions.
I can't see the map, but again, voting patterns don't tell the whole story due to reasons for voting may vary. This doesn't even get into the aspect of how a politician or person could be a moderate Republican or Democrat, which is more in line with what Upstate NY is. You don't find politicians that are far one thing or the other in Upstate NY. Ithaca may arguably be the most liberal city in the state.
It's in the Northeast because we are defining these regions on the state level. Since the topic is about what the area is most like I think it's fair to compare it to the Great Lakes. The Great Lakes region is just a sub region of the Midwest like New England is a sub region of the Northeast and It's very much what I think of first when talking about the Midwest. If Rochester and Buffalo fit into the Great Lakes area then they fit into the idea of Midwestern I have.
And in Vermont and Western Mass the Democrats are very liberal and the republicans that win are very moderate and can even resemble democrats in more conservative states. Speaking as someone who has lived in both Vermont and the Albany area I can tell you from my own observations which while not perfect made it clear to me that New England is much more liberal in rural areas than NY state.
Republicans in Upstate NY can be quite moderate as well. So, that isn't necessarily a difference in that regard.
As for the Great Lakes, no.....The Great Lakes are within parts of the Midwest and Northeast. Great Lakes doesn't equal Midwestern.
It's in the Northeast because we are defining these regions on the state level. Since the topic is about what the area is most like I think it's fair to compare it to the Great Lakes. The Great Lakes region is just a sub region of the Midwest like New England is a sub region of the Northeast and It's very much what I think of first when talking about the Midwest. If Rochester and Buffalo fit into the Great Lakes area then they fit into the idea of Midwestern I have.
The Great Lakes is a subset of both the Midwest and the Northeast. The Northeastern Great Lakes cities are still Northeastern though, just as the non-Great Lakes Midwestern cities (St. Louis, Kansas City, Des Moines, Omaha, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, etc.) are still Midwestern.
Using state borders parts of the Great Lakes are in the Northeast but on a whole the the US cities on the Great Lakes are culturally and environmentally Midwestern.
Using state borders parts of the Great Lakes are in the Northeast but on a whole the the US cities on the Great Lakes are culturally and environmentally Midwestern.
If that's your standard, then you must exclude non-Great Lakes Midwestern cities from the Midwest for the sake of consistency.
If that's your standard, then you must exclude non-Great Lakes Midwestern cities from the Midwest for the sake of consistency.
No, because the Great Lakes is a sub region. Something can be Midwestern without being Great Lakes but not the other way around. Something can be Northeastern but not New England but not the other way around.
No, because the Great Lakes is a sub region. Something can be Midwestern without being Great Lakes but not the other way around. Something can be Northeastern but not New England but not the other way around.
Says who??? How can you make these arbitrary statements so authoritatively???
The fact of the matter is that you're as wrong as two left shoes.
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