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Doesn't lower middle class actually mean "solid middle class"?
I thought the dichotomy was just "lower middle class" and "upper middle class", with the former being regular folk and the latter being borderline wealthy folk.
That works too. I separate them into poor, lower middle, middle, upper middle, and rich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by That_One_Guy
I don’t think race has anything to do with it. Brooklyn and Queens have some gritty, historically white neighborhoods, some not even gentrified at all.
Ex: Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Astoria, Sheepshead Bay, Midwood
And on a separate note: I don’t think gentrification always means a loss of grittiness. Just look at Gowanus, Brooklyn. The type of gentrification going on there is kind of unique though. It’s more like it’s just being newly developed altogether. It was historically just an industrial district with a few small sections of historical rowhomes but has been rezoned recently and now is seeing a transformation into more of a residential + commercial district. But the toxic canal and industrial charm everywhere still keep the area extremely gritty.
This is a Gowanus:
(The canal is extremely toxic and FWIW, this is a “White neighborhood”)
And just for the record, this is not even near Williamsburg or Bushwick
I'm not sure if it was you or someone else but I was responding to the comment that gritty hoods weren't majority minority. That isn't true in my experience. Again, I'm more comparing perspectives than telling him he or she is wrong.
I'd agree about loss of grit. But every case is different. When they tear down project buildings and replacethem with mixed income housing, it definitely takes some grit with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo_1
^^^The Bywater and Marigny in New Orleans are both on the gritty side and are largely white. They historically were white too though parts saw a black population influx. Same for parts of Mid-City and Uptown. All have seen some gentrification, though retain their grittiness. Similarly the older parts of Harvey, Marrero, and Westwego along the river are overwhelmingly white and gritty.
Gritty to me means an area is not perfectly polished or maintained. Some of the houses could use some work or a paint job, streets could use more trees and greenery, maybe there is some graffiti or abandoned industrial buildings, the neighborhood bar or corners store looks like it might collapse, etc. This could range from a relatively stable working class neighborhood to a full blown ghetto to a gentrifying area. All and all, grit gives an area a sense of history and character, a sense of place and interest that is often times not found in more well maintained area. It is like the old house that has all its original historic details but could maybe use a fresh coat of paint vs. the newly renovated house that even though it is a 100+ years old they somehow seemed to have sucked all the character and history out of it.
Really, it was a mixed bag since it was more black back then but the Bywater always retained a relatively large white population, dipping to a low of around 40% at the 1990 census, likely the worst time period New Orleans' urban health. It was majority white in the decades prior (as was most of the 9th ward) and started increasing again in the 1990s. It never saw the total white flight and urban decay/disinvestment that the lake side areas of St. Claude saw, one of the main reasons why it is in better shape today.
I am the type of person that likes nice clean cities full of beautiful greenery. I do believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but why would you seek filthy, graffiti sprayed crumbling neighborhoods absent of ANY form of green growing things? This may sound snarky, I don't mean it to be, but please explain to me the appeal of grit!
Once again, this has nothing to do with my post or the topic. My knowledge of Philadelphia's numerous neighborhoods is completely irrelevant to this discussion. All I've said is that Fishtown doesn't look too gritty based off the video that was posted earlier. You have completely misinterpreted or overlooked everything I've said.
I stand by my earlier point; any neighborhood full of 3rd wave coffee roasters and new restaurants/bars (as depicted in the Fishtown video) is not that gritty. It doesn't matter if it's in Brooklyn or Baton Rouge. I don't equate having a few gritty elements (older housing stock, graffiti murals, etc) with being definitely gritty.
From Fishtown's wikipedia of all places
'In recent years Fishtown has experienced moderate gentrification characterized by significant rises in housing prices and the opening of upscale art, entertainment, and dining establishments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishtown,_Philadelphia
Since you clearly take issue with my assertion, why not post some evidence to the contrary, or state why you think Fishtown is gritty?
The only thing I am uninterested in arguing over is the urbanity of south central because it's tangential to the topic of gritty appeal. I provided alternative examples of more definitely urban places to address my point, which you ignored. There are a dozen other threads where the relative urbanity of neighborhoods/regions can be more appropriately discussed.
Frankly, it seems you're the one that's uninterested in having a debate, since you've repeatedly ignored my points and have instead chosen to make snide/off-topic remarks about negligible details.
You’ve never set foot in Fishtown in your life. If you had, you wouldn’t need to refer to Wikipedia to make points about it.
You make quick, shallow and inaccurate assertions. In Post 39, you claim the appeal of grittiness is driven by baby boomers reflecting on the ”'rougher' environments during their youth/early adulthood and now that they are older they long to return to such times.” Give me a break
Finally, there’s this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by westbymidwest
Take a place like South Central LA; unquestionably gritty, but hardly anyone is moving there for that reason.
You assert SCLA is not just gritty, but “unquestionably” gritty, and then are “uninterested in having a debate” about it when you're called out on it.
So, you claim a west coast neighborhood is gritty when it’s not, claim an east coast neighborhood (you needed to google) isn’t gritty when it is and you think it’s all really just some movement driven by nostalgic baby boomers. I don’t think you have a clue on this topic.
Greenpoint is past that point, it's pretty much Williamsburg tier, and Bushwick is now headed down that path. At least the Western portion.
Also I've literally never heard anyone say "Greenpert" but I'm not 115 years old so that might be why.
I haven't either. But supposedly the legendary Greenpoint politician Pete McGuiness described the neighborhood as "Greenpernt--the garden spot of the univoise".
One census tract(Census Tract 002300) in that area is 42.9% white(Italian biggest ethnicity in plurality), 31.3% black, 9.6% Hispanic, 14.9% Asian, 0.7% Native American and 4.5% 2 or more races. Another one(Census Tract 000501) is 48.7% white(Italian biggest ethnicity in plurality), 18.8% black, 3.7% Hispanic, 23.6% Asian, 1% Native American and 6.4% 2 or more races. Both using 2010-2014 information and have its share of immigrants/refugees as well. So, you also have very diverse gritty areas as well.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 10-26-2017 at 08:40 AM..
Gritty doesn't have to mean dirty. There's some sense of authenticity when a place looks lived in. I live in a SW desert city and there won't be a whole lot of grass or trees intentionally planted or groomed. It is expensive and labor intensive in this climate. There will be odds and ends of visible trash blowing around but people make an effort to keep it under control. We have a culture of mural art on buildings that might not appeal to everyone...but not as much graffiti as a few years ago. Not everything is chrome and glass and sparkling clean. As a university town there is a certain funkiness to some areas. I was once a city planner and now a preservationist and support local architectural styles so I see something different than others might. I abhor the corporate cookie-cutter look that we sometimes have imposed on us.
Once again, this has nothing to do with my post or the topic. My knowledge of Philadelphia's numerous neighborhoods is completely irrelevant to this discussion. All I've said is that Fishtown doesn't look too gritty based off the video that was posted earlier. You have completely misinterpreted or overlooked everything I've said.
I stand by my earlier point; any neighborhood full of 3rd wave coffee roasters and new restaurants/bars (as depicted in the Fishtown video) is not that gritty. It doesn't matter if it's in Brooklyn or Baton Rouge. I don't equate having a few gritty elements (older housing stock, graffiti murals, etc) with being definitely gritty.
From Fishtown's wikipedia of all places
'In recent years Fishtown has experienced moderate gentrification characterized by significant rises in housing prices and the opening of upscale art, entertainment, and dining establishments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishtown,_Philadelphia
Since you clearly take issue with my assertion, why not post some evidence to the contrary, or state why you think Fishtown is gritty?
I'm not a Philly person, but I've been to Fishtown quite a few times, and its still fairly gritty. You can't get the feel from a short video like that which is trying to promote it. Most of the housing stock is old and NOT renovated - at least from what you can tell on the outside. There are still a lot of old school businesses and long time residents, alongside the new residents and new businesses which cater to a yuppified crowd. And those new higher-end businesses are likely there because the millenials who like to spend a lot of money on restaurants etc. while paying a lower rent than they would in center city.
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