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And that imaginary line separates a tiny 10% of Virginia's land area from the other 90%. The portion of NOVA that is non-characteristically Southern is Fairfax county, Arlington, Alexandria, and Falls Church. Prince Williams county is southern. So 90% of the counties (and land mass) in Virginia is still southern by every definition.
When I lived in Woodbridge, I grew up off if Jeff Davis. I also grew up near Fort Belvoir in Fairfax. The "imaginary line" does not exist, not even in an imaginary sense...
I grew up in the Deep South (Louisiana) so I am fully qualified on what is Southern.
No you're not; y'all have that French thing going on, Brooklyn-sounding accents, a bunch of Catholic churches, and unsweetened tea. All of that actually sounds very Yankee to me.
no you're not; y'all have that french thing going on, brooklyn-sounding accents, a bunch of catholic churches, and unsweetened tea. All of that actually sounds very yankee to me.
No you're not; y'all have that French thing going on, Brooklyn-sounding accents, a bunch of Catholic churches, and unsweetened tea. All of that actually sounds very Yankee to me.
Architecture is a big part of culture. What would New Orleans be if the Union had obliterated it? It would be a bunch of strip malls just like Houston. People visit New Orleans for the French colonial architecture and it is reminiscent of French Caribbean styles like in Haiti (before it was leveled by hurricanes and earthquakes).
Charleston has a very unique architectural style that is more like New Orleans than New England.
Many of the small towns in NC have a center square and a church right there similar to New England towns.
I'm not making this stuff up folks! I've visited NC and MA a lot and there are some striking similarities. There are more similarities in architecture between MA and NC than between NC and LA. However, one state south and SC resembles LA a lot more. VA is even moreso northern when you're there.
I could provide even more google maps but I encourage you to research yourself.
There are so many logical fallacies with your post, I don't even know where to begin. Anyways...
First of all, no one is denying that Charleston and New Orleans share similar architectural features. But you can't use these two cities to speak for the entirety of the Deep South, or for South Carolina and Louisiana, respectively, given their unique developmental histories and identities as colonial port cities. These cities are anomalies, especially New Orleans.
Second, you mentioned that "many of the small towns in NC" share similar architectural features with Northern places yet provided Winston-Salem as an example, which is neither a small town in the traditional sense nor an accurate representation of the entire state of North Carolina. Particularly, using Winston-Salem's Old Salem district as a basis of comparison is faulty because Winston-Salem's history, architecture, and culture were strongly influenced by Moravian settlers, who incorporated Moravian architectural elements into the predominant Colonial architecture of the time.
Third, of course NC and MA have more similarities than NC and LA given that NC and MA were both English colonies? As Georgia and SC were both colonies as well, there must be plenty of places in both of those states that share an architectural heritage with other former colonial states, such as those in the Northeast. Such a fact does not mean that said states are more "Northern" than Southern.
And as such, using Louisiana as a basis of comparison for a Deep South state is equally faulty logic because LA was and is heavily influenced by French and Creole cultures. I can cherry-pick examples of architecture in NC https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1080...7i13312!8i6656
that I believe are more Southern-influenced than Northern-influenced all day long, but that does not speak for an entire city, let alone an entire state.
Fourth, I can find plenty of instances of newer suburbs of the "Deep South states" of SC and GA with the "newer brick colonial" style, as well as plenty of instances of older homes/buildings in NC that use wooden materials. Just google Historic Oakwood in Raleigh as one example of the latter, whose homes bear a strong resemblance to wooden homes found in older, colonial-influenced cities in the Deep South.
The fact of the matter is, your comparisons are the equivalent of me calling the entire state of Alabama more "Northern" than "Southern" because of the city of Birmingham, which is famously known as the "Pittsburgh of the South" for its illustrious steel industry back in the day. The fact that you admitted to being a "Deep South purist" only reinforces how shortsighted your understanding of the South is. As a matter of fact, if you were truly a Deep South purist, Louisiana and Georgia would most definitely be excluded from your definition of the "traditional" South given LA's unique French influences and Atlanta's developmental history as an upstart rail hub, not to mention the incredibly diverse and cosmopolitan city that it has become today, with arguably more "Northern"-looking architecture than Southern.
Regardless of these specifics, the entire premise of using architecture, which is but one cultural element that gives a place its sense of identity, as a measuring stick for which states are more Southern or not is perhaps the main problem here. As Mutiny mentioned, if we used speech and language to gauge Southernness, New Orleans and a large part of LA would, by your logic, be more Northern than Southern. The "r"-dropping associated with Charleston speech also bears more similarity to many Northeastern cities than Southern cities, but I don't think anyone would deny Charleston's Southernness.
The bottom line is that there are various gradations and varieties of the South and Southernness, something you can't seem to accept as a so-called "Deep South purist." As such, claiming that you have authority on what constitutes the South or not is not going to be taken seriously by me or many others, for that matter.
Last edited by TarHeelTerritory; 07-30-2018 at 04:31 PM..
There are so many logical fallacies with your post, I don't even know where to begin. Anyways...
First of all, no one is denying that Charleston and New Orleans share similar architectural features. But you can't use these two cities to speak for the entirety of the Deep South, or for South Carolina and Louisiana, respectively, given their unique developmental histories and identities as colonial port cities. These cities are anomalies, especially New Orleans.
Second, you mentioned that "many of the small towns in NC" share similar architectural features with Northern places yet provided Winston-Salem as an example, which is neither a small town in the traditional sense nor an accurate representation of the entire state of North Carolina. Particularly, using Winston-Salem's Old Salem district as a basis of comparison is faulty because Winston-Salem's history, architecture, and culture were strongly influenced by Moravian settlers, who incorporated Moravian architectural elements into the predominant Colonial architecture of the time.
Third, of course NC and MA have more similarities than NC and LA given that NC and MA were both English colonies? As Georgia and SC were both colonies as well, there must be plenty of places in both of those states that share an architectural heritage with other former colonial states, such as those in the Northeast. Such a fact does not mean that said states are more "Northern" than Southern.
And as such, using Louisiana as a basis of comparison for a Deep South state is equally faulty logic because LA was and is heavily influenced by French and Creole cultures. I can cherry-pick examples of architecture in NC https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1080...7i13312!8i6656
that I believe are more Southern-influenced than Northern-influenced all day long, but that does not speak for an entire city, let alone an entire state.
Fourth, I can find plenty of instances of newer suburbs of the "Deep South states" of SC and GA with the "newer brick colonial" style, as well as plenty of instances of older homes/buildings in NC that use wooden materials. Just google Historic Oakwood in Raleigh as one example of the latter, whose homes bear a strong resemblance to wooden homes found in older, colonial-influenced cities in the Deep South.
The fact of the matter is, your comparisons are the equivalent of me calling the entire state of Alabama more "Northern" than "Southern" because of the city of Birmingham, which is famously known as the "Pittsburgh of the South" for its illustrious steel industry back in the day. The fact that you admitted to being a "Deep South purist" only reinforces how shortsighted your understanding of the South is. As a matter of fact, if you were truly a Deep South purist, Louisiana and Georgia would most definitely be excluded from your definition of the "traditional" South given LA's unique French influences and Atlanta's developmental history as an upstart rail hub, not to mention the incredibly diverse and cosmopolitan city that it has become today, with arguably more "Northern"-looking architecture than Southern.
Regardless of these specifics, the entire premise of using architecture, which is but one cultural element that gives a place its sense of identity, as a measuring stick for which states are more Southern or not is perhaps the main problem here. As Mutiny mentioned, if we used speech and language to gauge Southernness, New Orleans and a large part of LA would, by your logic, be more Northern than Southern. The "r"-dropping associated with Charleston speech also bears more similarity to many Northeastern cities than Southern cities, but I don't think anyone would deny Charleston's Southernness.
The bottom line is that there are various gradations and varieties of the South and Southernness, something you can't seem to accept as a so-called "Deep South purist." As such, claiming that you have authority on what constitutes the South or not is not going to be taken seriously by me or many others, for that matter.
I seemed to have hit a touchy point but sometimes the truth hurts. Nobody, I repeat nobody would deny the "Southernness" of Louisiana even though it has a French influence. It's just like central Texas was settled by Germans but nobody denies that central Texas is "purely Texan".
You're just as likely to find a restaurant in Louisiana serving fried catfish, hushpuppies, and cole slaw as one serving jambalaya and gumbo. In fact, you'll probably see both. Pecan pie is an integral part of Southern cooking, as are mint juleps and barbecue.
Louisiana has that in abundance. Football is king and people love story telling.
Louisiana nails the South but it also nails the French Colonial architecture present there. One thing's for certain, there is NO PART of Louisiana that resembles the north in any way, shape, or form.
That can't be said about North Carolina. The whole feel with the four seasons, the colonial architecture is really Northern to me. However, I will grant you that the food is more Southern than Northern. The sweet tea, the collard greens, the cornbread, the pork barbecue. There are aspects of NC culture that are southern - they like football, they like NASCAR, etc... But it still feels like a transition state not a "full on Southern state".
You're going to disagree because you have a dog in this fight but I should know. My mom's side of the family was Yankees and my dad's was Cajuns. Those two sides were like night and day. NC feels somewhat of a mix of that not one or the other.
According to this citydata survey, MS is the most Southern state and I agree:
Interesting. As a southerner, I see a lot of obsession with defining the South (often in negative terms) from people from other parts of the country.
For the record, of course NC and VA are southern states. I can't imagine why anyone would think differently but whatever. Some people also think the world is flat, and that man has never landed on the moon.
Right, like some southerners who take it as a compliment/badge of honor when people tell them they don't have a southern accent.
I seemed to have hit a touchy point but sometimes the truth hurts. Nobody, I repeat nobody would deny the "Southernness" of Louisiana even though it has a French influence. It's just like central Texas was settled by Germans but nobody denies that central Texas is "purely Texan".
You're just as likely to find a restaurant in Louisiana serving fried catfish, hushpuppies, and cole slaw as one serving jambalaya and gumbo. In fact, you'll probably see both. Pecan pie is an integral part of Southern cooking, as are mint juleps and barbecue.
Louisiana has that in abundance. Football is king and people love story telling.
Louisiana nails the South but it also nails the French Colonial architecture present there. One thing's for certain, there is NO PART of Louisiana that resembles the north in any way, shape, or form.
That can't be said about North Carolina. The whole feel with the four seasons, the colonial architecture is really Northern to me. However, I will grant you that the food is more Southern than Northern. The sweet tea, the collard greens, the cornbread, the pork barbecue. There are aspects of NC culture that are southern - they like football, they like NASCAR, etc... But it still feels like a transition state not a "full on Southern state".
You're going to disagree because you have a dog in this fight but I should know. My mom's side of the family was Yankees and my dad's was Cajuns. Those two sides were like night and day. NC feels somewhat of a mix of that not one or the other.
According to this citydata survey, MS is the most Southern state and I agree:
but I know Louisiana holds its own. NC wasn't even included in the survey.
No one is trying to claim that NC is the most Southern state. That title belongs to Mississippi or Alabama. But to claim that NC is NOT a Southern state, or somehow more "Northern" than "Southern," is frankly ridiculous. End of discussion. If you want to talk transition states, perhaps Kentucky or Maryland would be actual transition states, but North Carolina? Get out of here. I think plenty of people would agree that NC as a whole is more traditionally Southern than Louisiana. Southern culture has historically been predominantly influenced by white Scots-Irish Americans and African Americans, not by French Cajuns or Afro-Caribbean peoples. And to discount NC's identity as a Southern state because of the Research Triangle area is no different from discounting Georgia because of Atlanta. It's ridiculous.
"No part of Louisiana resembles the north in any way, shape, or form." Again, you're wrong. Did we not just have a discussion about accents in New Orleans? Or did you casually ignore that? There are plenty of other factors in just New Orleans that I'd argue resemble the North more than the South, such as the density and layout of the city, among other things.
"The whole feel with the four seasons." Tennessee arguably has more of the "four season weather" than NC but again, I don't think anyone is claiming that Tennessee is not Southern. Same goes for the Northern parts of Alabama and Georgia.
Again, about the Colonial architectural influences, you can find plenty of that in spades in Georgia and South Carolina. Therefore I don't understand what you're trying to prove here.
I think you're severely misinformed about what constitutes the South. Being the "Deep South purist" that you claim, I shouldn't be surprised. I don't think there's any point to continue the discussion any further if you're just going to be willfully ignorant. Au revoir.
Last edited by TarHeelTerritory; 07-31-2018 at 10:32 AM..
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Why do people erroneously consider Virginia and North Carolina to not be in the South?
