Why do American-born Blacks have accents even when American-born Asians and Hispanics typically don't? (fence, bill)
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First of all do you know what creolization means? Because I don't think you do but I'll post the definition for you so you can better understand why AAVE is a Creolization language.
2nd of all, Hillbilly refers to rural and mountainous White people who live in the southern part of the Appalachia and the Ozarks. Hillbillies are usually isolated and located away from places that were pretty much ground zero from plantations.
Also Cockney langauge is pretty specific to an area of London and it's surrounding areas that had little to no relation to the American South. Not to mention the people referred to as Hillybillies are generally descendants of Northern England/ lowland Scotland and parts of Northern Ireland. That's not Cockney brah. Talk about connecting the dots, that's exactly what you're doing.
Now let's back up a bit, I'm from the DEEP SOUTH. Where I'm from in East Texas Black and White people generally sound nothing alike. That's generally how it is anywhere in America. So it's a stretch to say Black people sound like rural backwoods White folk. You come off as some one that badly wants to assimilate into conservative White culture. I'm getting strong Fox News Larry Elder vibes from your post.
Now if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and blow it off as pure ignorance I'd say you're basing our inaccurate theories on the fact that Black people share the same language as White people? There's more to speech than a language.
AAVE specifically refers to the form of Black speech that distinguishes itself from standard English with its unique grammatical structure, pronunciation, and vocabulary. These grammatical structures for instance can not be found in any English dialect today. It's simply unique to AAVE. Now does AAVE have some influence from the indentured servants, overseers, whites that lived on the plantations and in close proximity to plantations? Yes of course they contributed to AAVE. However we're talking about an evolution of language that took place. Because enslaved Africans for the most part interacted with each other which means they would communicate with each other more than they would those lower class whites you give ALL CREDIT too.
Because Enslaved people and even a lot of free people generally were not allowed to read and write. Unless they lived on a plantation where their owner educated their slaves(in some cases this did happen) than the brief interactions they had with a few white folks compared to the interaction they had with each other. Again the first group of Africans during the colonial period had more interaction with white people because Whites could be indentured servants during that time period. That changed by the 18th century and that's when the enslaved population increased in America. Also must you forget that a lot of enslaved Africans were brought to the United States via the Caribbean's. When the Trans Atlantic slave trade was outlawed, the importation of enslaved people form the Caribbean's to America heavily increased.
You don't think these people had a language before their arrival here in America? Do you realize that before Africans were brought to America that they went through a "vetting" like process while still on the continent of Africa? Different ethnic groups of West and Central Africans were purposely isolated from those not captured and these different ethnic groups who spoke different languages had to create a new way of speech in order to be able to communicate with one another. Of course it evolved over time once they got to this country. That process is a creolization. To say otherwise is rooted in racism because it's intentionally dismissing the Africanisms in the way we talk.
Also if there's nothing African about our speech than why do we still have African words in our vocabulary? Example, banana/yam/okra/gumbo/okay all derive from West African ethnic groups.
Now Robinson, Powell, Dubois, Dandridge generally spoke Standard English. Most African Americans can speak standard English especially in spaces occupied or controlled by White people. Black people are generally more bidialectal than most other Americans.
And the last couple of sentences in your paragraph had nothing to do with speech and just proves my point about your stance. You're so assimilated into that way of thinking that you go out your way to deny the African influence when it's plain sight.
on the bolded, there's many examples of caribbean born or descended Black American contributions to black and American culture but I wonder if there's any linguistic influence from Caribbean Creoles on AAVE? There's some influence from these creoles in slang in heavily Caribbean areas like NYC or Florida but outside of that I'm not sure.
First of all do you know what creolization means? Because I don't think you do but I'll post the definition for you so you can better understand why AAVE is a Creolization language.
2nd of all, Hillbilly refers to rural and mountainous White people who live in the southern part of the Appalachia and the Ozarks. Hillbillies are usually isolated and located away from places that were pretty much ground zero from plantations.
Also Cockney langauge is pretty specific to an area of London and it's surrounding areas that had little to no relation to the American South. Not to mention the people referred to as Hillybillies are generally descendants of Northern England/ lowland Scotland and parts of Northern Ireland. That's not Cockney brah. Talk about connecting the dots, that's exactly what you're doing.
Now let's back up a bit, I'm from the DEEP SOUTH. Where I'm from in East Texas Black and White people generally sound nothing alike. That's generally how it is anywhere in America. So it's a stretch to say Black people sound like rural backwoods White folk. You come off as some one that badly wants to assimilate into conservative White culture. I'm getting strong Fox News Larry Elder vibes from your post.
Now if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and blow it off as pure ignorance I'd say you're basing our inaccurate theories on the fact that Black people share the same language as White people? There's more to speech than a language.
AAVE specifically refers to the form of Black speech that distinguishes itself from standard English with its unique grammatical structure, pronunciation, and vocabulary. These grammatical structures for instance can not be found in any English dialect today. It's simply unique to AAVE. Now does AAVE have some influence from the indentured servants, overseers, whites that lived on the plantations and in close proximity to plantations? Yes of course they contributed to AAVE. However we're talking about an evolution of language that took place. Because enslaved Africans for the most part interacted with each other which means they would communicate with each other more than they would those lower class whites you give ALL CREDIT too.
Because Enslaved people and even a lot of free people generally were not allowed to read and write. Unless they lived on a plantation where their owner educated their slaves(in some cases this did happen) than the brief interactions they had with a few white folks compared to the interaction they had with each other. Again the first group of Africans during the colonial period had more interaction with white people because Whites could be indentured servants during that time period. That changed by the 18th century and that's when the enslaved population increased in America. Also must you forget that a lot of enslaved Africans were brought to the United States via the Caribbean's. When the Trans Atlantic slave trade was outlawed, the importation of enslaved people form the Caribbean's to America heavily increased.
You don't think these people had a language before their arrival here in America? Do you realize that before Africans were brought to America that they went through a "vetting" like process while still on the continent of Africa? Different ethnic groups of West and Central Africans were purposely isolated from those not captured and these different ethnic groups who spoke different languages had to create a new way of speech in order to be able to communicate with one another. Of course it evolved over time once they got to this country. That process is a creolization. To say otherwise is rooted in racism because it's intentionally dismissing the Africanisms in the way we talk.
Also if there's nothing African about our speech than why do we still have African words in our vocabulary? Example, banana/yam/okra/gumbo/okay all derive from West African ethnic groups.
Now Robinson, Powell, Dubois, Dandridge generally spoke Standard English. Most African Americans can speak standard English especially in spaces occupied or controlled by White people. Black people are generally more bidialectal than most other Americans.
And the last couple of sentences in your paragraph had nothing to do with speech and just proves my point about your stance. You're so assimilated into that way of thinking that you go out your way to deny the African influence when it's plain sight.
Lots of foreign words describing foods and other things make their way into our language and every other language. This is something totally unrelated to what we're discussing.
I spent a large portion of my childhood in the deep south. Its absurd to suggest black and white southerners sound "nothing" alike. And i've already explained why they dont sound exactly alike today. The grammatical structures can absolutely still be found among small pockets of very rural, backwood southerners, whose traits once constituted a much larger % of the white southern population.
This "vetting process" that youre referring to, whereby captives of different regions were isolated briefly before coming to america, invented their own new dialect together and that this is the root of so called aave, is pure conjecture. This is the kind of imaginative, contortionist dot connecting i'm talking about.
And there seems to be this desire by you to imply, without saying explicitly, that black northerners spoke some sort of aave themselves, before the southerners displaced them. People like Robinson, Powell, Dubois, Dandridge, didnt speak standard english because they were in white controlled spaces. They spoke this way because this is how blacks in those regions spoke during their youth. Black people are in fact no more bidialectal than any other group (more imaginative, wishful thinking on your part)
"hillbilly" and "redneck" are slang terms and mean the same thing in common vernacular. crowing about which belongs to which specific mountain region is a hollow semantic game. They mean backwood, rural southerner.
My original use of cockney was geographically imprecise, but one can nonetheless find uncanny similarities between it and aave.
Many black southerners even dont have this so called aave speech. And almost no northern born blacks from the pre-great migration cultures had it. The only reason the overwhelming majority % of black people today speak this way is due to social pressure and prevalent attitudes about "blackness". Its mostly a fake, put-on they learn to mimic once they reach adolescence. Most conform rather than be outcasted. This is why the aave is not prevalent among black 9 years olds, but totally dominates among them by the time they reach high school. Its performative and conformative for most today, and would have wilted away among blacks as it did for whites were it not for this social pressure.
As a liberal, I did get a laugh out of your 'Fox news Larry Elder' comment though.
Last edited by TheArchitect; 11-10-2021 at 12:17 PM..
Lots of foreign words describing foods and other things make their way into our language and every other language. This is something totally unrelated to what we're discussing.
I spent a large portion of my childhood in the deep south. Its absurd to suggest black and white southerners sound "nothing" alike. And i've already explained why they dont sound exactly alike today. The grammatical structures can absolutely still be found among small pockets of very rural, backwood southerners, whose traits once constituted a much larger % of the white southern population.
This "vetting process" that youre referring to, whereby captives of different regions were isolated briefly before coming to america, invented their own new dialect together and that this is the root of so called aave, is pure conjecture. This is the kind of imaginative, contortionist dot connecting i'm talking about.
And there seems to be this desire by you to imply, without saying explicitly, that black northerners spoke some sort of aave themselves, before the southerners displaced them. People like Robinson, Powell, Dubois, Dandridge, didnt speak standard english because they were in white controlled spaces. They spoke this way because this is how blacks in those regions spoke during their youth. Black people are in fact no more bidialectal than any other group (more imaginative, wishful thinking on your part)
"hillbilly" and "redneck" are slang terms and mean the same thing in common vernacular. crowing about which belongs to which specific mountain region is a hollow semantic game. They mean backwood, rural southerner.
My original use of cockney was geographically imprecise, but one can nonetheless find uncanny similarities between it and aave.
Many black southerners even dont have this so called aave speech. And almost no northern born blacks from the pre-great migration cultures had it. The only reason the overwhelming majority % of black people today speak this way is due to social pressure and prevalent attitudes about "blackness". Its mostly a fake, put-on they learn to mimic once they reach adolescence. Most conform rather than be outcasted. This is why the aave is not prevalent among black 9 years olds, but totally dominates among them by the time they reach high school. Its performative and conformative for most today, and would have wilted away among blacks as it did for whites were it not for this social pressure.
As a liberal, I did get a laugh out of your 'Fox news Larry Elder' comment though.
John McWhorter, whose credentials speak for themselves, would strongly disagree with you on just about every point. As a matter of fact, I just started reading his book Talking Back, Talking Black and he goes to great lengths from the outset to drive home the point that Black American English is a legitimate nonstandard English dialect with its own set of rules and is not simply a degradation of standard English. And no one would accuse McWhorter of all the things you mention here.
Lots of foreign words describing foods and other things make their way into our language and every other language. This is something totally unrelated to what we're discussing.
I spent a large portion of my childhood in the deep south. Its absurd to suggest black and white southerners sound "nothing" alike. And i've already explained why they dont sound exactly alike today. The grammatical structures can absolutely still be found among small pockets of very rural, backwood southerners, whose traits once constituted a much larger % of the white southern population.
This "vetting process" that youre referring to, whereby captives of different regions were isolated briefly before coming to america, invented their own new dialect together and that this is the root of so called aave, is pure conjecture. This is the kind of imaginative, contortionist dot connecting i'm talking about.
And there seems to be this desire by you to imply, without saying explicitly, that black northerners spoke some sort of aave themselves, before the southerners displaced them. People like Robinson, Powell, Dubois, Dandridge, didnt speak standard english because they were in white controlled spaces. They spoke this way because this is how blacks in those regions spoke during their youth. Black people are in fact no more bidialectal than any other group (more imaginative, wishful thinking on your part)
"hillbilly" and "redneck" are slang terms and mean the same thing in common vernacular. crowing about which belongs to which specific mountain region is a hollow semantic game. They mean backwood, rural southerner.
My original use of cockney was geographically imprecise, but one can nonetheless find uncanny similarities between it and aave.
Many black southerners even dont have this so called aave speech. And almost no northern born blacks from the pre-great migration cultures had it. The only reason the overwhelming majority % of black people today speak this way is due to social pressure and prevalent attitudes about "blackness". Its mostly a fake, put-on they learn to mimic once they reach adolescence. Most conform rather than be outcasted. This is why the aave is not prevalent among black 9 years olds, but totally dominates among them by the time they reach high school. Its performative and conformative for most today, and would have wilted away among blacks as it did for whites were it not for this social pressure.
As a liberal, I did get a laugh out of your 'Fox news Larry Elder' comment though.
1) So explain to me how did words from West Africa travel to America at the same time enslaved Africans from West Africa were brought to this country? You stated that we have no trace of West and Central African influence in our language but explain specific words traveling to America in relation to African Americans. And no it's relatable because it shows a pattern of influence from West and Central Africa. If words can survive than other attributes relating to language/speech can survive as well.
2) You say you spent a large portion of your childhood in the Deep South. But I actually lived in the Deep South everyday for over 20 years of my life. Now do you mind showing me examples of these rural backwood White southerners who share the same grammatical speech as Black people. Because I can assure you rural Backwood White Southerners share even less in common with Black people in the south.
3) The vetting process actually happened though off the coast of West Africa. Your COCKNEY influence on AAVE is the stretch of the century though. Cockney dude? LMAOOOO
4) Jackie Robinson didn't grow up in the Northeast so let's shoot that example down right there. Colin Powell parents were Jamaican immigrants and both were Bi-Racial at that. Dubois did have an accent but spoke primarily Standard English intentionally. Dorothy Dandridge grew up in Cleveland not the Northeast. It's not the same. There goes that pattern of geographical imprecise sheesh. Also even with the clip of Ida James you could hear AAVE with certain pronunciations. Others here it but YOU. I wonder why? LOL
5) Redneck and Hillbilly are used incorrectly. That's your fault not theirs and it shows how geographically ignorant you are of specific regions. You're all over the place at this point.
AAVE is not prominent among Black 9 years old? You don't live around many Black people do you? Are you even Black? I'm starting to think not. Very sheltered and ignorant statement. Maybe adopted by Whites.
Wait, are we really pretending that screen actors and actresses didn't specifically train to have a Mid-Atlantic accent prior to the mid-1960s, and that all on-screen accents from that time shouldn't be considered affectations?
1) So explain to me how did words from West Africa travel to America at the same time enslaved Africans from West Africa were brought to this country? You stated that we have no trace of West and Central African influence in our language but explain specific words traveling to America in relation to African Americans. And no it's relatable because it shows a pattern of influence from West and Central Africa. If words can survive than other attributes relating to language/speech can survive as well.
2) You say you spent a large portion of your childhood in the Deep South. But I actually lived in the Deep South everyday for over 20 years of my life. Now do you mind showing me examples of these rural backwood White southerners who share the same grammatical speech as Black people. Because I can assure you rural Backwood White Southerners share even less in common with Black people in the south.
3) The vetting process actually happened though off the coast of West Africa. Your COCKNEY influence on AAVE is the stretch of the century though. Cockney dude? LMAOOOO
4) Jackie Robinson didn't grow up in the Northeast so let's shoot that example down right there. Colin Powell parents were Jamaican immigrants and both were Bi-Racial at that. Dubois did have an accent but spoke primarily Standard English intentionally. Dorothy Dandridge grew up in Cleveland not the Northeast. It's not the same. There goes that pattern of geographical imprecise sheesh. Also even with the clip of Ida James you could hear AAVE with certain pronunciations. Others here it but YOU. I wonder why? LOL
5) Redneck and Hillbilly are used incorrectly. That's your fault not theirs and it shows how geographically ignorant you are of specific regions. You're all over the place at this point.
AAVE is not prominent among Black 9 years old? You don't live around many Black people do you? Are you even Black? I'm starting to think not. Very sheltered and ignorant statement. Maybe adopted by Whites.
There are plenty white people in parts of the deep south that sound almost indistinguishable from black southerners. And speaking in AAVE doesn't necessarily mean speaking in a southern black accent.
1) So explain to me how did words from West Africa travel to America at the same time enslaved Africans from West Africa were brought to this country? You stated that we have no trace of West and Central African influence in our language but explain specific words traveling to America in relation to African Americans. And no it's relatable because it shows a pattern of influence from West and Central Africa. If words can survive than other attributes relating to language/speech can survive as well.
2) You say you spent a large portion of your childhood in the Deep South. But I actually lived in the Deep South everyday for over 20 years of my life. Now do you mind showing me examples of these rural backwood White southerners who share the same grammatical speech as Black people. Because I can assure you rural Backwood White Southerners share even less in common with Black people in the south.
3) The vetting process actually happened though off the coast of West Africa. Your COCKNEY influence on AAVE is the stretch of the century though. Cockney dude? LMAOOOO
4) Jackie Robinson didn't grow up in the Northeast so let's shoot that example down right there. Colin Powell parents were Jamaican immigrants and both were Bi-Racial at that. Dubois did have an accent but spoke primarily Standard English intentionally. Dorothy Dandridge grew up in Cleveland not the Northeast. It's not the same. There goes that pattern of geographical imprecise sheesh. Also even with the clip of Ida James you could hear AAVE with certain pronunciations. Others here it but YOU. I wonder why? LOL
5) Redneck and Hillbilly are used incorrectly. That's your fault not theirs and it shows how geographically ignorant you are of specific regions. You're all over the place at this point.
AAVE is not prominent among Black 9 years old? You don't live around many Black people do you? Are you even Black? I'm starting to think not. Very sheltered and ignorant statement. Maybe adopted by Whites.
We have several native American and French words in our language, without any other linguistic influence from those cultures. So no, a few words describing things does not show a "pattern of influence" that would prove aave is a proper dialect, let alone from Africa.
Most of the rest of your post is rehashing semantic irrelevancies about redneck and hillbilly and cockney.
And again with the totally out of your own imagination and absurd idea, that these disparate linguistic groups made up their own new dialect during the short holding period in africa, and that this is the origin of aave
You forget, i'm the one who noted Jackie Robinsons California upbringing and Dandridges Ohio origins. These regions had their own long-time black populations pre great migration. My argument was never that blacks only occupied the northeast. So not sure what point youre even attempting to make there. And no, Ida James had no aave pronunciations. Just your over eager imagination.
Powells parents being from Jamaica is of no consequence, he himself is from NY and got his accent from the blacks he grew up around there. And what does "Dubois spoke standard english intentionally" mean? He spoke with an obvious strong regional accent that was definitely authentic. Again its this sneaky attempt by you to imply, without saying outright, that the old northerners spoke some sort of aave. Your bizarre belief that these people who had been in these other regions for centuries, just MUST have spoken aave, leads me to suspect that you privately have other, perhaps more controversial notions of race speech difference, that cause you to think they must have inherently spoke differently.
Last edited by TheArchitect; 11-12-2021 at 01:05 PM..
For the so called aave, Its domination is not consistent accross all regions of the US. Pockets of the upper midwest and west coast retain greater diversity among he black population. Here is a video from Grand Rapids Michigan. I spent my own very early childhood years in this region, despite being born in he south. Most of my interaction was with relatives. Grand aunts & uncles and their kids and grandkids, who had been in the region for much longer. My own very rhotic diction is similar to most of the folks in the vid. A similar dynamic can be found in SoCal, where i've also lived, where there is more a mix of the southern and non-southern among blacks than most other regions
And the two guys in 2nd half of this vid, both closer to my generation. After a bit of put-on slang at the introduction they go back to their normal, childhood diction. Especially the guy in the hat, who is from Grand Rapids.
In another part of the country, where the blacks are more homogenous, these people might get labelled "talking white" or "oreo". But their speech actually mostly comes from other black influence.
There are plenty white people in parts of the deep south that sound almost indistinguishable from black southerners. And speaking in AAVE doesn't necessarily mean speaking in a southern black accent.
I actually agree with this, as the documentary from Nova Scotia illustrates this. However, you can at times tell if a person has relatively recent Southern roots when they pronounce certain words. Some of this can come from the fact that even if a person was born and raised in another region, their parents or grandparents may be from the South. So, I think that has to be considered.
This is the case with that documentary, as many of the black people in the Canadian Maritimes have roots in states in the South like VA, MD and SC(especially the first 2).
There are plenty white people in parts of the deep south that sound almost indistinguishable from black southerners. And speaking in AAVE doesn't necessarily mean speaking in a southern black accent.
Generally if there are white people in the deep south that sound almost indistinguishable from Black Southerners they either grew up in a predominately Black community or they're intentionally trying to sound like that. Generally though Black southerners and White Southerners have different dialects. And I never once said speaking in AAVE equates to southern Black accent. There is no one particular southern Black accent to begin with. The roots of AAVE come from the South though that is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
We have several native American and French words in our language, without any other linguistic influence from those cultures. So no, a few words describing things does not show a "pattern of influence" that would prove aave is a proper dialect, let alone from Africa.
Most of the rest of your post is rehashing semantic irrelevancies about redneck and hillbilly and cockney.
And again with the totally out of your own imagination and absurd idea, that these disparate linguistic groups made up their own new dialect during the short holding period in africa, and that this is the origin of aave
You forget, i'm the one who noted Jackie Robinsons California upbringing and Dandridges Ohio origins. These regions had their own long-time black populations pre great migration. My argument was never that blacks only occupied the northeast. So not sure what point youre even attempting to make there. And no, Ida James had no aave pronunciations. Just your over eager imagination.
Powells parents being from Jamaica is of no consequence, he himself is from NY and got his accent from the blacks he grew up around there. And what does "Dubois spoke standard english intentionally" mean? He spoke with an obvious strong regional accent that was definitely authentic. Again its this sneaky attempt by you to imply, without saying outright, that the old northerners spoke some sort of aave. Your bizarre belief that these people who had been in these other regions for centuries, just MUST have spoken aave, leads me to suspect that you privately have other, perhaps more controversial notions of race speech difference, that cause you to think they must have inherently spoke differently.
1)The French colonized parts of America and established communities throughout the country at some point. Native Americans settled here for thousands of years before any European colonized the region. If these Native American and French words are in our language it's because they've influenced the linguistics used in America. I think you're confusing the definition of linguistic and dialect.
2) I never said the origin of AAVE solely came directly from the isolation while on the coast of West Africa awaiting to be put on cargo ships to the West. I stated it was one of the influences on AAVE. I'm not over simplifying AAVE like you and your cockney obsession over there. There were many factors in the creation of AAVE. You seem to think it was the backwood Whites which that theory in itself is rooted in racism and White supremacy rhetoric.
3)Powell was raised in the South Bronx and according to Wikipedia he picked up Yiddish while working on a store in a Jewish community. Went to a high school that wasn't predominately Black and served in the Military for 35 years. Powell spent most of his life in predominately White spaces. He's the exception not the rule.
4) W.E.B. Dubois grew up in Great Barrington,MA. He grew up in a integrated society where very little Black people lived at the time. Not to mention both of his parents were of mixed ancestry. The exception not the rule.
And unless you provide proof of what the Old Northern accent sounded like for the general Black population born at the tail end of slavery than you have nothing to really stand on. The Slave narratives I posted are from actual ex slaves. It shows a pattern. A couple of historical figures doesn't prove anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
For the so called aave, Its domination is not consistent accross all regions of the US. Pockets of the upper midwest and west coast retain greater diversity among he black population. Here is a video from Grand Rapids Michigan. I spent my own very early childhood years in this region, despite being born in he south. Most of my interaction was with relatives. Grand aunts & uncles and their kids and grandkids, who had been in the region for much longer. My own very rhotic diction is similar to most of the folks in the vid. A similar dynamic can be found in SoCal, where i've also lived, where there is more a mix of the southern and non-southern among blacks than most other regions
And the two guys in 2nd half of this vid, both closer to my generation. After a bit of put-on slang at the introduction they go back to their normal, childhood diction. Especially the guy in the hat, who is from Grand Rapids.
In another part of the country, where the blacks are more homogenous, these people might get labelled "talking white" or "oreo". But their speech actually mostly comes from other black influence.
The videos you posted display Black people speaking with AAVE though. African American Vernacular English. You're disdain for AAVE is clearly showing pretty hard if you don't hear it in the videos. You do realize Black people can interchangeably speak AAVE, standard English and a regional accent all in one sentence right? How that concept goes over your heard I don't know.
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