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I think it's partly that and partly that many people from the Bay or people that have moved there and love it refuse to admit that any other place can even be remotely cool or good. Plenty of people in NYC willingly admit they're over it and move to a cheaper urban city like Philly or to the suburban cities like Atlanta and Raleigh or to the Miami area. It's expensive here, but people realize it and will move. From my time spent living in SF and knowing people from SF and the Bay as a whole, they seem entirely brainwashed sometimes into believing that the Bay is the only good place to live in the entire world, so they refuse to live anywhere else. By commuting via plane far away, they get to stay part of the Bay culture and workforce.
I used to work in non-profit in SF. One of our clients was being evicted from public housing for the umpteenth time because she fell asleep while her kid was in the bathtub and the water flooded the apartment and the two below her. The city declined to ever house her again because she had been evicted so many times and they were only helping her so she could keep her child. But they were fed up with her this time. We told her we could get her into Daly City or Oakland housing so she could commute into SF for work but she adamantly refused to leave the city limits of SF and called us useless for not being able to help her stay in the city limits. So it's also that mentality that makes people stay, where no matter what the reality is, they need name recognition of where they live I guess to show off to others or seem cool? Idk.
Then it's also the job. I'm sure if you work in tech in the Bay, it can't be that hard to downgrade from there. Like if you work for Google in the Bay, a small tech firm in another state would probably love your experience and you can now afford the pay cut. But people see prestige in the name of their company and could also be thinking "the next promotion is mine" and they'll be able to afford it better.
Also, anyone ever see that clip that was going around social media of the budgeting of a family living in SF? Mom was at SF State and lived in some kinda subsidized campus housing with her husband and two kids? They had so many frivolous costs that could've been avoided, but like many young people that care about their image, she had to go out and buy her coffee every morning instead of brewing a pot at home for like 25 cents. The family drove a newer Prius. They ate lunch together which is cute, but they bought the lunch out instead of making something at home and bringing it to work/school. Maybe if they didn't live a lifestyle that revolved around buying so many pointless things, they could live more comfortably. That coffee is probably $4 every morning and a lunch for two people out in SF is probably minimum $25 depending on what they're getting. Round that up to $30 and they spend $30 per day on stuff that could've cost just a few bucks at home. Considering this month has 22 work days, that's $660 they would've spent in April 2019. Over a year, that would be almost $8,000 they could save by literally just making coffee and not eating lunches out. Then add in the costs of owning a car in SF when like why bother even living in SF and being in a semi-urban city if you're not going to take advantage of the public transit options?
So, I think people budget extremely poorly also. I'm not rich, but I budget well, I bring lunch to work most days, I make my coffee at home unless the office provides it. I drive as little as possible, but work requires me to own one. Lyft/Uber is my last resort. I live alone in a very nice new studio because I budget well.
You're one of my favorite posters and I don't doubt yoru analysis here. But, don't many New Yorkers frown upon people that move as far as VBrooklyn or Hoboken?
I agree with everything you said about the prestige factor. To me, while these markets pay more, I honestly believe it's about wanting to feel cool. Most tech companies will let you work remote withi nreason.
You're one of my favorite posters and I don't doubt yoru analysis here. But, don't many New Yorkers frown upon people that move as far as VBrooklyn or Hoboken?
I agree with everything you said about the prestige factor. To me, while these markets pay more, I honestly believe it's about wanting to feel cool. Most tech companies will let you work remote withi nreason.
Oh definitely. It's weird. Moving to a neighborhood too far away or into NJ is looked down upon. But, just look at migration patters from NYC to Philly and there are tons of New Yorkers moving there. Then, everyone has a family member or two or twenty that has moved to Miami. Generally the grandparents retire there. The younger friends tend to move to Atlanta or NC if they want suburban living and raising a family.
It's far less common for someone from the Bay to have a large diaspora of friends in other places. LA is a little better since a lot of people from LA have moved to LV, Phoenix and Texas. But I tend to notice more people staying in the Bay than in LA. Both are pretty bad at people realizing that there is more to the world than your bubble. I mean, it's a well-known thing about New Yorkers moving elsewhere. Miami's culture has come to replicate NYC's in some ways. Duke has a large student body of Northeasterners and they stay afterwards often. Atlanta is known for receiving a lot of New York expats. Almost every time I've had a connecting flight to NYC through ATL or Charlotte, there were New Yorkers going home from visiting their kids in school or some family/friends. There are entire businesses based on people moving from NY to South Florida basically (a little exaggeration, but not entirely).
LA is starting to catch on with LV, Phoenix and Denver beginning to emulate LA in many ways and catering to LA expats. I know tons of people that I grew up with in LA moving to those three or Texas (and NYC). But almost nobody I know from college who is from the Bay has moved out of the Bay, unless it was to LA.
It's far less common for someone from the Bay to have a large diaspora of friends in other places. LA is a little better since a lot of people from LA have moved to LV, Phoenix and Texas. But I tend to notice more people staying in the Bay than in LA. Both are pretty bad at people realizing that there is more to the world than your bubble.
This sort of help explains the super commuter phenomenon, especially out West. Think about it - some people would rather commute 80-90 miles for work rather than move somewhere new and explore the great unknown. There are jobs that simply can't be relocated and I get that, but most cities for most people offer the same kind of jobs.
Don't get me wrong though, this consideration is probably pretty low on why it happens. Most of those people would most likely rather have jobs closer to where they live.
This sort of help explains the super commuter phenomenon, especially out West. Think about it - some people would rather commute 80-90 miles for work rather than move somewhere new and explore the great unknown. There are jobs that simply can't be relocated and I get that, but most cities for most people offer the same kind of jobs.
Don't get me wrong though, this consideration is probably pretty low on why it happens. Most of those people would most likely rather have jobs closer to where they live.
I assume that there is at least a good number of people who work in tech in one way or another. Maybe not as a computer engineer or programmer or whatever. But something related to the tech industry. There are numerous other more affordable techie cities. It probably can't be that hard to transfer within a company to a Denver or Austin office. I'm sure with a few years of experience, someone working for tech in the Bay could apply for a solid position in tech in Nashville or Raleigh. But it doesn't seem like many are willing to.
OTOH, you have the service or non-tech workers who can't transfer jobs as easily. I get that. But I very highly doubt that with due diligence and plenty of hours spent updating a resume and applying nationwide, that all those people would be shut out from jobs nationwide. I see people from my high school in LA moving to Texas, Miami, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Denver, Las Vegas, Phoenix and probably more I can't remember. Also NYC and Boston, though not much cheaper. But they're moving for jobs and/or college/grad school so they can support themselves and get good jobs. Some have moved back to LA after they establish their careers elsewhere, but they are now able to earn enough money to live on their own and have a good lifestyle in a good neighborhood in close commuting distance. Meanwhile, Bay people I know are living at home, going to college/grad school in the Bay while living at home, working in the Bay while living at home, etc. Some have moved to Sacramento. But it seems far more common for Angelenos to move for a better QOL or career advancement.
Again, this is all just from personal observations of having lived in both (and now NYC which I described its moving patters previously). No statistical evidence.
Oh definitely. It's weird. Moving to a neighborhood too far away or into NJ is looked down upon. But, just look at migration patters from NYC to Philly and there are tons of New Yorkers moving there. Then, everyone has a family member or two or twenty that has moved to Miami. Generally the grandparents retire there. The younger friends tend to move to Atlanta or NC if they want suburban living and raising a family.
It's far less common for someone from the Bay to have a large diaspora of friends in other places. LA is a little better since a lot of people from LA have moved to LV, Phoenix and Texas. But I tend to notice more people staying in the Bay than in LA. Both are pretty bad at people realizing that there is more to the world than your bubble. I mean, it's a well-known thing about New Yorkers moving elsewhere. Miami's culture has come to replicate NYC's in some ways. Duke has a large student body of Northeasterners and they stay afterwards often. Atlanta is known for receiving a lot of New York expats. Almost every time I've had a connecting flight to NYC through ATL or Charlotte, there were New Yorkers going home from visiting their kids in school or some family/friends. There are entire businesses based on people moving from NY to South Florida basically (a little exaggeration, but not entirely).
LA is starting to catch on with LV, Phoenix and Denver beginning to emulate LA in many ways and catering to LA expats. I know tons of people that I grew up with in LA moving to those three or Texas (and NYC). But almost nobody I know from college who is from the Bay has moved out of the Bay, unless it was to LA.
I think SF and NYC are definitely cities where citizens love to say "If I can make it here I can make it anywhere" and it's almost like they want to stay longer just to prove that they're still making it. A friend of mine lives in SF, seems to hate it, could sell his house and use that equity to buy another house cash in a less expensive market. Yet, he won't do it. Not sure why. LA, DC and I'm sure other cities have citizens like that, but not as many.
I assume that there is at least a good number of people who work in tech in one way or another. Maybe not as a computer engineer or programmer or whatever. But something related to the tech industry. There are numerous other more affordable techie cities. It probably can't be that hard to transfer within a company to a Denver or Austin office. I'm sure with a few years of experience, someone working for tech in the Bay could apply for a solid position in tech in Nashville or Raleigh. But it doesn't seem like many are willing to.
OTOH, you have the service or non-tech workers who can't transfer jobs as easily. I get that. But I very highly doubt that with due diligence and plenty of hours spent updating a resume and applying nationwide, that all those people would be shut out from jobs nationwide. I see people from my high school in LA moving to Texas, Miami, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Denver, Las Vegas, Phoenix and probably more I can't remember. Also NYC and Boston, though not much cheaper. But they're moving for jobs and/or college/grad school so they can support themselves and get good jobs. Some have moved back to LA after they establish their careers elsewhere, but they are now able to earn enough money to live on their own and have a good lifestyle in a good neighborhood in close commuting distance. Meanwhile, Bay people I know are living at home, going to college/grad school in the Bay while living at home, working in the Bay while living at home, etc. Some have moved to Sacramento. But it seems far more common for Angelenos to move for a better QOL or career advancement.
Again, this is all just from personal observations of having lived in both (and now NYC which I described its moving patters previously). No statistical evidence.
Interestign you bring up Raleigh. It was on my radar at one point as I'm in tech. I've asked people in Denver whose HQs were in Raleigh if they would relocate and their answers were "no, still the south." So other cities have that unwarranted snobbery.
Interestign you bring up Raleigh. It was on my radar at one point as I'm in tech. I've asked people in Denver whose HQs were in Raleigh if they would relocate and their answers were "no, still the south." So other cities have that unwarranted snobbery.
Plenty of Americans definitely do. But commuting via flight from out of state to the Bay, or commuting 3 hours each way from the Central Valley to the Bay? That's ridiculous. Denver has tech jobs. Someone could definitely apply for jobs there and it's a liberal city in a now-blue state. If it's actually about family and not prestige, you'd suck up your pride and realize the culture of the Bay Area is not as important as seeing your family regularly and spending quality time together. Find a different job in Las Vegas or Reno. Culture isn't the same or as strong, but do it for your family. Why bother having a spouse and kids if you're never going to see them?
Or, better yet, Californians could get over their obsession with "good weather" and live in a city with a good economy that gets snow. Chicago has some solid tech jobs and if you sold a house in the Bay, you could easily buy a house in Chicago. Or if you're renting, your rent would probably get cut in half by relocating to Chicago. Plenty of culture, strong economy, just can't cry every time the temperature drops below 50.
Californians are far too concerned with doing what's cool and not with what is practical and beneficial to themselves. Give up some culture. Grow up and deal with cold weather. There are countless places people from the Bay could afford, they just are unwilling to consider them. Personally, I'm able to afford rent in a cultured, liberal, vibrant city. If I had to move hours away, I'd rather just move away away and go to a cheaper city with a better QOL. I don't have a family, but if I did, seeing them would be more important that saying I live 2.5 hours outside of NYC (or in this case of the topic, SF).
A better question for this thread would be to discuss our own actual commutes. Anybody can pontificate and conjure up terribly long commutes in major cities. But who is actually commuting a long way?
My own commute is somewhat long - from the North End of Tacoma to downtown Seattle. About 35 miles as the crow flies, but it takes anywhere from 50 min (off peak hours) to 2 hours during weekdays. Like Hemlock's co-worker, I do a combination of drive/bus/walk when I work "normal" hours. Luckily this is only on average once a week, all other days are off-peak.
The reason I don't move closer is that my spouse works in Olympia and we chose Tacoma as a half-way point. We both have moderately long commutes as opposed to one short and one VERY long commute.
Up until a year ago my DH was commuting 3-4 days a week from eastern PA to Brooklyn, NY which took him 2.5-3 hours in the morning and about 1.5-2 hours late in the evening (after rush hour). This was a 75 mile drive each way.
Plenty of Americans definitely do. But commuting via flight from out of state to the Bay, or commuting 3 hours each way from the Central Valley to the Bay? That's ridiculous. Denver has tech jobs. Someone could definitely apply for jobs there and it's a liberal city in a now-blue state. If it's actually about family and not prestige, you'd suck up your pride and realize the culture of the Bay Area is not as important as seeing your family regularly and spending quality time together. Find a different job in Las Vegas or Reno. Culture isn't the same or as strong, but do it for your family. Why bother having a spouse and kids if you're never going to see them?
Or, better yet, Californians could get over their obsession with "good weather" and live in a city with a good economy that gets snow. Chicago has some solid tech jobs and if you sold a house in the Bay, you could easily buy a house in Chicago. Or if you're renting, your rent would probably get cut in half by relocating to Chicago. Plenty of culture, strong economy, just can't cry every time the temperature drops below 50.
Californians are far too concerned with doing what's cool and not with what is practical and beneficial to themselves. Give up some culture. Grow up and deal with cold weather. There are countless places people from the Bay could afford, they just are unwilling to consider them. Personally, I'm able to afford rent in a cultured, liberal, vibrant city. If I had to move hours away, I'd rather just move away away and go to a cheaper city with a better QOL. I don't have a family, but if I did, seeing them would be more important that saying I live 2.5 hours outside of NYC (or in this case of the topic, SF).
And you don't even have to deal with cold weather. Move to a place like Raleigh or Texas. Food in Texas is very close to California and a good house in the major metros there can be had for 200k. What can you get for 200k in SF or LA? Basically nothing right?
I'm certain a lot of people on the coast probably have a lot of equity in their homes. Easy move.
I'm like you. I actually have options up and down the coast and I can thankfully afford to pay for them, but I'm not living three hours outside of NYC or SF just to say I'm part of the metro.
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