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Old 08-22-2019, 02:48 AM
 
Location: Flyover part of Virginia
4,231 posts, read 2,420,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdivola View Post
I'm curious why so many are mentioning Cleveland? My impression is it is mostly single-family homes, and has lost a lot of its legacy old school urban architecture.

I would say:
1) Baltimore
2) Pittsburgh
3) Milwaukee.

St Louis and Cinny also has some good urban bones. But, they are smaller/less vibrant IMO.

I could also see an argument of Portland Oregon. It isn't traditionally urban. But, it has seen a ton of infill and has a very walkable core.
Single family homes are not inherently "unurban," and apartments and townhomes are not inherently "urban." It's possible that Cleveland was mutilated to a greater extent than many other American cities due to post war "development," but it still has enough of its original man-made environment to make it more 'urban' than most other cities its size. And Milwaukee is not a 2-3 million metro.



Anyway, the only ones that stand out are Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland. Maybe St Louis and Cincinnati too.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:53 AM
 
8,090 posts, read 6,894,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggerung View Post
Single family homes are not inherently "unurban," and apartments and townhomes are not inherently "urban." It's possible that Cleveland was mutilated to a greater extent than many other American cities due to post war "development," but it still has enough of its original man-made environment to make it more 'urban' than most other cities its size. And Milwaukee is not a 2-3 million metro.



Anyway, the only ones that stand out are Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland. Maybe St Louis and Cincinnati too.
I haven't visited St Louis, but if the cities on this list, I'd rank Cleveland dead last. While they are too small to qualify, I'd also rank Milwaukee, New Orleans and Richmond over Cleveland, in terms of urbanity.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Flyover part of Virginia
4,231 posts, read 2,420,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I haven't visited St Louis, but if the cities on this list, I'd rank Cleveland dead last. While they are too small to qualify, I'd also rank Milwaukee, New Orleans and Richmond over Cleveland, in terms of urbanity.
When discussing "urbanness," I only really take into account two things- the level of walkability and public transportation available to the average resident. By that metric, I think Cleveland beats Richmond and New Orleans. I would say it beats Milwaukee too, but by a much slimmer margin.

New Orleans and Richmond are more "urban" than most southern cities though.

Last edited by Taggerung; 08-22-2019 at 08:54 AM..
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,360 posts, read 16,866,636 times
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I really don't understand the people arguing for Cleveland. It's probably the least urban/walkable of the major rust belt cities, barring Detroit (which was badly hurt by urban renewal). There's very little built intensity outside of the downtown area.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:19 AM
 
8,090 posts, read 6,894,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggerung View Post
When discussing "urbanness," I only really take into account two things- the level of walkability and public transportation available to the average resident. By that metric, I think Cleveland beats Richmond and New Orleans. I would say it beats Milwaukee too, but by a much slimmer margin.

New Orleans and Richmond are more "urban" than most southern cities though.
Have you actually been to all three cities?

Richmond's built form is far more urban, and I would argue that it's more walkable.

Neighborhoods with walkscores of 90 or better:

Cleveland- 1
Richmond- 5

Neighborhoods with walkscores between 80-89:

Cleveland- 0
Richmond- 6


Walkscore 70-79:

Cleveland- 5
Richmond- 6

Nothing with a walkscore under 70 is TRULY walkable.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,360 posts, read 16,866,636 times
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To my mind, the major things when considering urbanity basically come down to:

1. Walkability (best measured by the total population of neighborhoods which score highly on Walkscore).

2. Built form. Things like long unbroken linear business districts, rowhouses, walkup apartment buildings, etc add to the urban feel, while strip malls, parking lots, and detached single-family homes feel less urban.

Using Pittsburgh examples, most people would consider this to be a highly urban street, this to be a moderately urban one, and this to not be an urban street.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,360 posts, read 16,866,636 times
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Here's a collection of streetviews I did the other year of urban residential streets in Pittsburgh:

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Here's a group of streetviews I put together for a thread on another forum from the classically urban residential streets in Pitttsburgh. I excluded business districts.

Apartment Districts:

North Oakland
North Oakland
South Oakland
Shadyside
Shadyside
Shadyside
Squirrel Hill
Squirrel Hill

Rowhouse areas (limit of one per neighborhood, because there are so many):

Allegheny West
Manchester
Central North Side
Deutschtown
Spring Garden
Troy Hill
Polish Hill
Lower Lawrenceville
Central Lawrenceville
Upper Lawrenceville
Bloomfield
Garfield*
East Liberty*
Shadyside*
South Oakland
Uptown
South Side
Hazelwood*
Homewood*

* Not indicative of majority of housing stock in neighborhood.
Edit: Also, business districts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Here's links to most of the the walkable business districts in Pittsburgh. The ones lower down the list ain't all impressive, but they're there.

1. East Carson Street (South Side)
2. Butler Street (Lawrenceville)
3. Penn Avenue (Strip District)
4. Forbes Avenue (Oakland)
5. Murray Avenue (Squirrel Hill)
6. Walnut Street (Shadyside)
7. Liberty Avenue (Bloomfield)
8. Penn Avenue (Garfield)
9. East Ohio Street (Deutschtown)
10. Brookline Boulevard (Brookline)
11. South Highland Avenue (Shadyside/East Liberty)
12. Penn Avenue (East Liberty)
13. Bryant Street (Highland Park)
14. Reynolds Street (Point Breeze)
15. Greenwood Street (Morningside)
16. Ellsworth Avenue (Shadyside)
17. Greenfield Avenue (Greenfield)
18. Murray Avenue (Greenfield)
19. Forbes Avenue (Squirrel Hill)
20. Shiloh Street (Mount Washington)
21. Broadway Avenue (Beechview)
22. East Warrington Avenue (Allentown)
23. West End Village (West End)
24. Western Avenue (Allegheny West)
25. Semple Street (Oakland)
26. South Craig St (Oakland)
27. Federal Street (North Shore)
28. Federal Street (Central North Side)
29. California Avenue (Brighton Heights)
30. Perrysville Avenue (Observatory Hill)
31. Penn Avenue (Bloomfield)
32. North Craig/Centre (Oakland)

Honestly not done. I could think of another five at least, but they mostly aren't impressive. There are maybe a dozen walkable suburban business districts which are relatively intact and active however.
Since these were links from several years ago, the streetviews are kinda old. In some cases you can move the year forward and see newer development.
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:26 AM
 
2,786 posts, read 2,229,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggerung View Post
Single family homes are not inherently "unurban," and apartments and townhomes are not inherently "urban." It's possible that Cleveland was mutilated to a greater extent than many other American cities due to post war "development," but it still has enough of its original man-made environment to make it more 'urban' than most other cities its size. And Milwaukee is not a 2-3 million metro.



Anyway, the only ones that stand out are Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland. Maybe St Louis and Cincinnati too.

I get the arguments for Baltimore and Pittsburgh. They are both very old school classic urban cities.

But I have a hard time ranking Cleveland, St Louis, and Cincinnati. Cincinnati has always reminded me of a mini Pittsburgh. Its core areas have the tightest built environment of the three. But it feels a little smaller than the others. St Louis has row house areas and thriving urban areas such as CWE and Delmar Loop. Cleveland has arguably the best downtown and then emerging pockets around U City/little Italy and then Ohio City/Detroit Shoreway/Tremont. But I don't know enough to say one objectively stands above the others I ask have a hard time ranking any of the three above Pittsburgh or Baltimore.

Denver, Columbus and especially Portland also probably deserve to be in the discussion. Portland urbanism is probably "overrated", but it does have a vibrant downtown and lots of bustling neighborhood commercial strips. I would put it above the Cle,Cincy, STL group at this point.
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:27 AM
 
13,942 posts, read 14,823,775 times
Reputation: 10383
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I haven't visited St Louis, but if the cities on this list, I'd rank Cleveland dead last. While they are too small to qualify, I'd also rank Milwaukee, New Orleans and Richmond over Cleveland, in terms of urbanity.
Providence too.
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:31 AM
 
8,090 posts, read 6,894,660 times
Reputation: 9225
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Providence too.
absolutely
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