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Confusion reigns. I like living in Texas because of the diversity. There is no racial purify test in my mind. Some think geography is all that matters in determining whick region a state is in. Op ignored my request he list his official list if USA regions. I found the federal gov has several different region lists. I found Texas was not listed as a southern state than did.
I count culture of a state in considering which region a state is in my mind. I think transplants from other regions or parts of the world bring with them part of the culture of their origin or home. So in my view Texas is much less southern in culture now for to immigration from other countries and transplants from other regions.
I like living in Texas because in part it is diverse. Diversity brings new ideas and interest to an area. I find DFW and Houston more diverse and integrated than NYC metro and Pittsburgh which I like.
I'm not clear about OP's agenda in this thread though I'm clear he has one.
Texas is not unique in having a lot of variety within it but it has seen lots more growth over my lifetime and that means changed to me. Change is good too.
My mission on this board is to bring facts to the conversation. That’s why I dig so deep into statistics. I don’t hear southern accents from Hispanics in Dallas or Houston often. Meanwhile you get people who have never lived in either trying to act as authorities on them. That’s annoying as hell. Honestly most people in Dallas and Houston don’t have accents because most people who live in both are not from Texas. That includes white people as well. African Americans do tend to have thicker accents than other races that reflect where they’re from. In small cities around them you obviously get it more often because there are fewer people from outside those regions that move there. This is not specific to the south. People in cities tend to have more muted accents in most regions of the country.
Obviously there’s no statistical data on this so I can’t prove this but neither can you. The difference is I interact with people from this city every day I here. You haven’t and the OP hasn’t. The statement I’m strongly disagree was made by the OP: “most Hispanics in Dallas and Houston have southern accents”. Sorry, no. Some do most do not.
And no I don’t think southern accents make a place backwards nor do I think that cities that are southern are less sophisticated.
I have lived all over this country, and in my experience, African Americans who are native to the US (I.e., not recent immigrants from Africa or the West Indies) have the same dialect, which is Southern US, especially the “Black Belt” dialect from Louisiana to Georgia/North Florida. If you go to Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, DC, L.A., Milwaukee, etc., the dialect is substantially similar. I believe someone (I want to say Henry Louis Gates) studied this and said the reason for this was that during the Great Migration, most of the AA’s that went North were from the Deep South, where racism was the worst (i.e. MS, AL, GA, and FL).
The one exception I have found to this are people from the West Indies (including LATAM) and Africa, who for obvious reasons, have their own distinct dialect. In fact, if you want to check what I mean, for those who are hip hop aficionados, especially old heads, listen to the way NYC rappers sound, versus Chicago, LA and Atlanta. The NYC rappers have a distinct dialect because many of the early NYC rappers were of West Indian descent, especially Jamaica and the US VI. Add to that some Afro-Latinos from PR and the DR, and you have a unique NYC sound. On the other hand, Snoop Dogg sounds very, very southern. Why? Because his family is from Mississippi and moved west during WW2. So he picked up their dialect.
I have lived all over this country, and in my experience, African Americans who are native to the US (I.e., not recent immigrants from Africa or the West Indies) have the same dialect, which is Southern US, especially the “Black Belt” dialect from Louisiana to Georgia/North Florida. If you go to Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, DC, L.A., Milwaukee, etc., the dialect is substantially similar. I believe someone (I want to say Henry Louis Gates) studied this and said the reason for this was that during the Great Migration, most of the AA’s that went North were from the Deep South, where racism was the worst (i.e. MS, AL, GA, and FL).
The one exception I have found to this are people from the West Indies (including LATAM) and Africa, who for obvious reasons, have their own distinct dialect. In fact, if you want to check what I mean, for those who are hip hop aficionados, especially old heads, listen to the way NYC rappers sound, versus Chicago, LA and Atlanta. The NYC rappers have a distinct dialect because many of the early NYC rappers were of West Indian descent, especially Jamaica and the US VI. Add to that some Afro-Latinos from PR and the DR, and you have a unique NYC sound. On the other hand, Snoop Dogg sounds very, very southern. Why? Because his family is from Mississippi and moved west during WW2. So he picked up their dialect.
Some of this I agree with, but your causation hypothesis is wrong. Northeast Blacks (including NYC, Boston, etc- Philly to a much much less extent) have a larger traditional West Indian population. Historically at least (may be slowly changing)...NYC and the NE had the largest West Indian black population. But there are plenty of black rappers out of NYC who don't have any West Indian background. LL Cool J, Eric B, Rakim, most of the Wu Tang Clan, and the list goes on and on.....so while you are correct that NYC rappers have a distinct dialect, it's not because they have a West Indian background. There just happens to be more West Indians in NYC (classic example of association vs. causation).
To prove this point further, the next largest West Indian population (and today may even be larger) is in Florida, and Florida rappers still have a strong Southern accent. So the West Indies population doesn't have anything to do with the accent. The classic New York and Boston accents that blacks have are more Italian American-influenced (or Irish-American-influenced in Boston's case) than anything else.
So this is how I see it based on historical data and anecdotal evidence.
The foundation of Texas culture is a Southern one. No different than any other state that formed the Confederacy. Whites from other southern states moved to Texas in part due to the possibility of owning enslaved Africans. Many Whites actually felt they had a better chance of enslaving Africans in Texas more so than the southern states they came from due to the land not being occupied by Rich Slave masters. They had a fresh start in Texas.
Majority of the White "settlers" and Enslaved Africans came via the Deep South. I know for instance I found census records that showed one of my ancestors on my Mother's Father side was enslaved in Virginia before his master moved himself and his "property" to Harrison county, TX in the 1800's. I also found out on my Dad's Mother side of a relative who was enslaved in Mississippi and brought to Harrison county around the same time. Prior to White "settlers" moving to Texas, there were many cases of Enslaved Africans escaping to Mexican Texas. Some even escaped into Cherokee territory pre-Republic.
But slavery was a big part of Texas economy during it's inception. At one point before the Civil War, Galveston was the largest cotton shipping port in the world. 30% of people in Texas in 1860 were enslaved Africans and Texas was 10th in total slave population. Texas was created in the image of the elite and opportunist White Southern male.
And even though the south started to form it's own identity separate of the North during the beginning of the antebellum period, the south identity really took shape leading up to and during the Civil War. Texas wasn't on the outside looking in, it was a continuation of that economically, politically and socially. Even cities like Austin and even San Antonio were apart of this as well. Albeit San Antonio was always different and less rooted in southern culture due to the success of the Spanish settlement followed by The Mexican Independence of War and the presence of Tejanos. You could say San Antonio/South Texas/ El Paso had this distinct history that wasn't present or as prevalent in areas east of San Antonio.
Now you can say those White "settlers" from 1845-1930 saw themselves as generally Southern. The western half of the state is really the only part of the state you can consider to have the frontier history similar to the West. That part of Texas is also the least populated one and had the less significance during Texas earliest days.
The beginnings of Texas becoming less "southern" was a marketing ploy started somewhere around the 30's. With the popularity and lore of Westerns, Texas adopted that. That wasn't the majority of Texas though. It embraced that image. Fort Worth is probably the only major Texas city that can lay claim to that image.
Now of course over time, major cities like Dallas, Houston, Austin have become something much more than Southern. The foundation is more evident in Houston than Dallas but Dallas foundation is more evident than Austin. Dallas and Houston are international cosmopolitan cities full of transplants so there so much more. I actually look at Atlanta the same way. I don't hear deep accents from everyday common people in either MSA untill I venture out to the burbs and definitely exurbs.
I'll always hear more of a southern accent in either city from Black natives though. That's pretty consistent though even that weakens when you go to the burbs. It's more common to hear Black people with standard English dialect more than anything. Mostly millennials though if there's not a strong accent.
Austin has even less of a noticeable dialect in the city compared to Houston and Dallas. Rural areas and smaller cities and towns will always have the deeper accents because they have the less influence from other places.
East Texas is without a doubt southern and that's down to the dialects, customs, style of BBQ,etc. From Northeast to Southeast you couldn't tell the difference if there were no State sign. People outside of East Texas treat the region no different than they would if they were in Louisiana/ Alabama/ Mississippi.
As far as Texas rich Mexican history. Here's the facts and I know people don't want to admit but Southern culture's origins is heavily defined by slavery. We can say it evolved beyond slavery decades and generations later but it's origins and identity is tied to slavery. Mexicans were not apart of that. And we see it in Texas because they viewed slavery differently than the White "settlers" from the south.
Mexicans who migrated to Texas decades later assimilated into a southern culture if anything. But they already had their rich culture that added to different cities in Texas. Still that's happening in other southern cities as we speak now. Not as obvious as Texas by far but hey where I lived in Atlanta, the Mexican population heavily influenced that part of Atlanta. And they were less assimilated into Atlanta than what you have in any TX major city. Regional culture will change eventually. TX was just ahead of the curve I guess.
With all that said, I still wouldn't consider TX "SOUTHWEST" with a state this big it's more complicated than that.
So this is how I see it based on historical data and anecdotal evidence.
The foundation of Texas culture is a Southern one. No different than any other state that formed the Confederacy. Whites from other southern states moved to Texas in part due to the possibility of owning enslaved Africans. Many Whites actually felt they had a better chance of enslaving Africans in Texas more so than the southern states they came from due to the land not being occupied by Rich Slave masters. They had a fresh start in Texas.
Majority of the White "settlers" and Enslaved Africans came via the Deep South. I know for instance I found census records that showed one of my ancestors on my Mother's Father side was enslaved in Virginia before his master moved himself and his "property" to Harrison county, TX in the 1800's. I also found out on my Dad's Mother side of a relative who was enslaved in Mississippi and brought to Harrison county around the same time. Prior to White "settlers" moving to Texas, there were many cases of Enslaved Africans escaping to Mexican Texas. Some even escaped into Cherokee territory pre-Republic.
But slavery was a big part of Texas economy during it's inception. At one point before the Civil War, Galveston was the largest cotton shipping port in the world. 30% of people in Texas in 1860 were enslaved Africans and Texas was 10th in total slave population. Texas was created in the image of the elite and opportunist White Southern male.
And even though the south started to form it's own identity separate of the North during the beginning of the antebellum period, the south identity really took shape leading up to and during the Civil War. Texas wasn't on the outside looking in, it was a continuation of that economically, politically and socially. Even cities like Austin and even San Antonio were apart of this as well. Albeit San Antonio was always different and less rooted in southern culture due to the success of the Spanish settlement followed by The Mexican Independence of War and the presence of Tejanos. You could say San Antonio/South Texas/ El Paso had this distinct history that wasn't present or as prevalent in areas east of San Antonio.
Now you can say those White "settlers" from 1845-1930 saw themselves as generally Southern. The western half of the state is really the only part of the state you can consider to have the frontier history similar to the West. That part of Texas is also the least populated one and had the less significance during Texas earliest days.
The beginnings of Texas becoming less "southern" was a marketing ploy started somewhere around the 30's. With the popularity and lore of Westerns, Texas adopted that. That wasn't the majority of Texas though. It embraced that image. Fort Worth is probably the only major Texas city that can lay claim to that image.
Now of course over time, major cities like Dallas, Houston, Austin have become something much more than Southern. The foundation is more evident in Houston than Dallas but Dallas foundation is more evident than Austin. Dallas and Houston are international cosmopolitan cities full of transplants so there so much more. I actually look at Atlanta the same way. I don't hear deep accents from everyday common people in either MSA untill I venture out to the burbs and definitely exurbs.
I'll always hear more of a southern accent in either city from Black natives though. That's pretty consistent though even that weakens when you go to the burbs. It's more common to hear Black people with standard English dialect more than anything. Mostly millennials though if there's not a strong accent.
Austin has even less of a noticeable dialect in the city compared to Houston and Dallas. Rural areas and smaller cities and towns will always have the deeper accents because they have the less influence from other places.
East Texas is without a doubt southern and that's down to the dialects, customs, style of BBQ,etc. From Northeast to Southeast you couldn't tell the difference if there were no State sign. People outside of East Texas treat the region no different than they would if they were in Louisiana/ Alabama/ Mississippi.
As far as Texas rich Mexican history. Here's the facts and I know people don't want to admit but Southern culture's origins is heavily defined by slavery. We can say it evolved beyond slavery decades and generations later but it's origins and identity is tied to slavery. Mexicans were not apart of that. And we see it in Texas because they viewed slavery differently than the White "settlers" from the south.
Mexicans who migrated to Texas decades later assimilated into a southern culture if anything. But they already had their rich culture that added to different cities in Texas. Still that's happening in other southern cities as we speak now. Not as obvious as Texas by far but hey where I lived in Atlanta, the Mexican population heavily influenced that part of Atlanta. And they were less assimilated into Atlanta than what you have in any TX major city. Regional culture will change eventually. TX was just ahead of the curve I guess.
With all that said, I still wouldn't consider TX "SOUTHWEST" with a state this big it's more complicated than that.
Texas is the south central wiki even states that. The only region of Texas that can be considered the Southwest is the Pecos region in west texas.
Texas is the south central wiki even states that. The only region of Texas that can be considered the Southwest is the Pecos region in west texas.
Texas being south central makes sense from a geographical and logistics perspective. Often times Texas/ Oklahoma/ Louisiana/Arkansas are linked together in that category in most sectors.
You know, I can go on Wiki and say that Lebron James is better than Michael Jordan. Doesn't mean it's true. Or not true.
Its more than Wiki, just search for regions of the USA. You will see many different Federal definitions of regions with some variance in states in those regions. But the majority of the definitions do not show Texas in a South Region.
Ignoring Texas history before it became state is common and misses history. How many southern states fought a war for independence from Mexico? Do you think that might impact Texas long ago culture and history? I do
If western Texas is not heavily populated does that make West Texas southern or not important?
Its more than Wiki, just search for regions of the USA. You will see many different Federal definitions of regions with some variance in states in those regions. But the majority of the definitions do not show Texas in a South Region.
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Ignoring Texas history before it became state is common and misses history. How many southern states fought a war for independence from Mexico? Do you think that might impact Texas long ago culture and history? I do
If western Texas is not heavily populated does that make West Texas southern or not important?
But these were White Southerners fighting Mexico because they wanted to preserve Slavery. Other Southern states didn’t have to fight Mexico because Mexico didn’t own those territories then. Texans we’re literally Southerners fighting to preserve the right to continue their Southern culture. If they looked at themselves as different then why else did they join the Confederacy?
Plus how ridiculous does that sound that the first generation of White Texans would quickly abandon their southern roots just because they moved a couple miles away from their home? That’s not how that works. Southerners who migrated to Mexico-Texas didn’t even assimilate into a pre-existing culture because most of the territories were not occupied or established by Mexicans. San Antonio and South Texas can claim that to a greater extent than anything East of that in the State.
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