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I think what the poster to whom you're replying is trying to say is that the actual people that actually live in those areas see them different than us city geeks see them.
People who actually live in Balt & DC don't view the two as one entity, despite their proximity and overflow. It's people on this web page who try to shoehorn them into being a singular metropolitan entity.
The Bay Area, OTOH, is the opposite. People who actually live in the Bay Area see themselves as one singular, albeit multi-nodal/polycentric entity.
Just like people who actually native to Chicagoland see Chicago for the midwestern metropolis it is, rather than some lost east coast city that somehow got trapped in the midwest that many on this forum (usually Chicago transplants or folks who only know the city from pictures of the loop) try to make it to be.
Instead of trying to pigeonhole places into how we think they should be classified, how about we actually ask natives and residents of places how they see themselves....
See also: Cleveland +/- the rest of NE Ohio
Exactly. Many people from out of town tend to call Baltimore the DMV. The Baltimore Metropolitan Area is not part of the DMV. DMV=DC MSA; the Baltimore MSA is just called the Baltimore Area.
At the end of the day San Jose has its own distinct sphere of influence and operates too independently of SF/Oakland to justify it becoming part of their metro irregardless of the seamless physical development between the two regions.
Disagree completely.
I have friends in San Jose, Los Altos, and Mountain View and there's no difference in where they work, what they do for fun, which sports teams like they like, their housing market, which tv/radio they listen to than people a few miles away in Fremont or Menlo Park which are in the SF MSA. Google HQ is in the SJ MSA, Facebook's the SF MSA, and barely anyone notices. You get the same time of employers throughout the SF MSA that you get throughout the SJ MSA with comparable wages. Definitely not the case in DC and Baltimore where wages are much higher, housing costs much higher, and jobs far more white collar in DC than Baltimore.
Not to mention that the city limits of Dallas and Fort Worth are closer to each other than DC and Baltimore. You really can’t compare the two.
Yet despite that, the downtowns of DFW are only 3 miles closer than DC’s and Baltimore’s (by car or crow). Considering how large these individual metros are, that distance is trivial.
The main difference between DFW and DC-Baltimore is the cultural/demographic differences between the core cities, not geographical distance or infrastructure integration
Yet despite that, the downtowns of DFW are only 3 miles closer than DC’s and Baltimore’s (by car or crow). Considering how large these individual metros are, that distance is trivial.
The main difference between DFW and DC-Baltimore is the cultural/demographic differences between the core cities, not geographical distance or infrastructure integration
Raleigh and Durham, NC. Makes no sense that Dallas and Fort Worth are in the same metro area, yet somehow Raleigh and Durham are not. The two cities co-anchor one airport and a large share of the employment base at RTP is right between the two cities.
Yet despite that, the downtowns of DFW are only 3 miles closer than DC’s and Baltimore’s (by car or crow). Considering how large these individual metros are, that distance is trivial.
The main difference between DFW and DC-Baltimore is the cultural/demographic differences between the core cities, not geographical distance or infrastructure integration
One can absolutely compare them
While cultural and demographic issues are the primary difference between DC and Baltimore, there's also a development gap along the Patuxent River for much of the MSA boundary. Land equidistant to Dallas and Fort Worth has Texas Stadium, the new Rangers ballpark, and further north, the airport that carries 80% of that region's traffic. Similarly between SF and SJ there's heavily populated areas on both sides of the Bay, including around the San Mateo Bridge.
Downtown to Downtown is more like 6-8 miles greater for DC and Baltimore than Dallas and Fort Worth. Also DC has been growing out away from Baltimore into Virginia, and you have to drive out of DC on city streets, not freeways like you can in Dallas. Dallas to Ft Worth is generally a significantly faster drive.
But agree, no chance DC/Baltimore become one media market like Cleveland/Akron, DFW and SF/SJ/Oakland are. Can only imagine working class white people in Glen Burnie or Dundalk losing their minds and tuning out quickly if they had to listen to what was going on in Arlington or McLean and then having to get updates on DC sports teams. Just as few people in Arlington or DC couldn't begin to give two bowel movements about local news in Owings Mills or Baltimore.
But agree, no chance DC/Baltimore become one media market like Cleveland/Akron, DFW and SF/SJ/Oakland are. Can only imagine working class white people in Glen Burnie or Dundalk losing their minds and tuning out quickly if they had to listen to what was going on in Arlington or McLean and then having to get updates on DC sports teams. Just as few people in Arlington or DC couldn't begin to give two bowel movements about local news in Owings Mills or Baltimore.
I don't know if this is implied or not, but consolidated media markets aren't required when having a singular MSA. For example, Miami/Ft.Lauderdale is a different TV Market than West Palm Beach, but they are the same MSA. The opposite is true as well. Raleigh, Durham, and Fayetteville are the core cities in separate MSAs, but are within the same TV Market.
I can see why people want Riverside/SB with LA, but keep in mind that Riverside and SB counties stretch to the AZ/NV border. To do this would mean that the whole Palm Springs/Joshua Tree area (2+ hours from LA) and Mojave Desert areas. If SB and Riverside counties didn't go to the border, I would support this (though I actually haven't been to the area).
It's not that anyone 'wants' the IE to be part of the LA Metro, it's just the fact that it is a part. The IE exists as it does because of LA. It serves as the logistics hub for the LA Metro. 95% of the time when someone from LA orders stuff online it is shipped from a warehouse in the IE. When ships unload in LA/Long Beach, most of the stuff goes to warehouses in the IE to be shipped to the rest of the country.
There are a couple of parts of the IE that aren't in the commuter shed of LA, the Coachella Valley, as you mentioned, as well as the Apple Valley and the Temecula Valley (Temecula has closer ties to SD, but there are still a fair amount of commuters to OC).
As to your point about the IE Metro counties being so huge, what difference does it make if a small towns like Blythe or Needles that sit over 210 miles from Riverside and are currently part of the IE "metro" became part of LA's Metro? It's only about 20% farther to LA than it currently is from Riverside. It's just a result of the lazy way the census defines MSA's by counties. Probably 75+% of the population lives in suburban houses in the SB Valley and has similar commuting patterns to the people that live in the suburban housing on the other side of Mills Ave that separates it from LA County.
While cultural and demographic issues are the primary difference between DC and Baltimore, there's also a development gap along the Patuxent River for much of the MSA boundary. Land equidistant to Dallas and Fort Worth has Texas Stadium, the new Rangers ballpark, and further north, the airport that carries 80% of that region's traffic. Similarly between SF and SJ there's heavily populated areas on both sides of the Bay, including around the San Mateo Bridge.
The Patuxent research facility is the major reason there’s development urban breaks because it legally can’t be developed, Maryland’s artificial lakes and nature reserves don’t help as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
Downtown to Downtown is more like 6-8 miles greater for DC and Baltimore than Dallas and Fort Worth. Also DC has been growing out away from Baltimore into Virginia, and you have to drive out of DC on city streets, not freeways like you can in Dallas. Dallas to Ft Worth is generally a significantly faster drive.
The shortest route from downtown DC-Baltimore by mileage is shade under 35 miles via Route 1, if you take I95 or 295 it’s a shade over 37 miles. Dallas to Fort Worth is 33 miles using IH-30E. But I agree the drive is quicker in DFW than Baltimore-DC area due to DFW having a better road/highway network layout and having +1.5 million less people in the region
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
But agree, no chance DC/Baltimore become one media market like Cleveland/Akron, DFW and SF/SJ/Oakland are. Can only imagine working class white people in Glen Burnie or Dundalk losing their minds and tuning out quickly if they had to listen to what was going on in Arlington or McLean and then having to get updates on DC sports teams. Just as few people in Arlington or DC couldn't begin to give two bowel movements about local news in Owings Mills or Baltimore.
Agree 100%
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