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What percentage does avail themselves to these options? I have visited Denver a few times (great place, loved it) and could not help but notice endless traffic jams, even during non-rush hour times.
Very old stats from CD say 8% on bus and 0% on subway, rail, etc. The light rail is adding routes all the time, so that has increased. There is a thread on the Denver forum about increased ridership. I think most of the buses, etc are at capacity during rush hour.
As far as traffic in cities, have you ever been to Minneapolis? It's worse. (FWIW)
I reckon the same thing they did before the arrival of the affordable automobile. Humanity was around for quite some time before the car was invented.
Giddy Up!
Well, I think that we will always have some private transport vehicle, we're not going back to the horse and buggy or anything, even though that might be fun.
The question is about economics. Will we have a practical and affordable vehicle for people in the average income range before gas prices skyrocket out of the average income price range. Depends on what you think about this question:
Do you think gas prices could double into $8-$10 a gallon within 10 years?
If so, then cities and towns will definitely have to become more friendly to pedestrians and mass transit options.
jm31828, why do you assume it would be impossible to redesign cities to be less auto-dependent? Most American cities that pre-date the automobile were once that way, as little as 3 decades ago. Since WWII, these cities have been basically retro-fitted for the automobile (streets widened, freeways constructed, transit lines abandoned, bulings razed for parking lots, denity reduced, etc.) There is no reason these cities cannot be "re-retrofitted" for human-scale habittation.
It's easy to expand out as we did, but to contract everything close together would mean forcing the stores, office buildings, etc. to move, to tear down neighborhoods and redesign them closer together in less car-dependent layouts. It'll be a tougher transition, building on top of other areas and trying to contract everything instead of the spreading out/sprawling that was done with ease in all the open space that was available after WWII. But I hope it somehow can happen. :-) I am sure not arguing against it, just expressing fear for the future for places such as this that are sprawled enough to need cars for everything, but yet not populated enough to ever make it seem economically viable for the city to build some sort of mass transit that hits all areas of town and hits those areas frequently enough to make them a true replacement for cars.
It's easy to expand out as we did, but to contract everything close together would mean forcing the stores, office buildings, etc. to move, to tear down neighborhoods and redesign them closer together in less car-dependent layouts. It'll be a tougher transition, building on top of other areas and trying to contract everything instead of the spreading out/sprawling that was done with ease in all the open space that was available after WWII. But I hope it somehow can happen. :-) I am sure not arguing against it, just expressing fear for the future for places such as this that are sprawled enough to need cars for everything, but yet not populated enough to ever make it seem economically viable for the city to build some sort of mass transit that hits all areas of town and hits those areas frequently enough to make them a true replacement for cars.
I agree, but one thing that can help which is easier to do than building upwards is to limit the building outwards. Fill in those empty spaces in residential and commercial zones.
It's very hard though since building outwards on new land is so much cheaper, and I'm afraid that it will continually happen until gas prices actually start restricting it.
Then people are going to cry foul and say why didn't we do something earlier, and other people will say that it's a horrible lesson to learn and couldn't be helped, and then history will repeat itself.
Well, I think that we will always have some private transport vehicle, we're not going back to the horse and buggy or anything, even though that might be fun.
The question is about economics. Will we have a practical and affordable vehicle for people in the average income range before gas prices skyrocket out of the average income price range. Depends on what you think about this question:
Do you think gas prices could double into $8-$10 a gallon within 10 years?
If so, then cities and towns will definitely have to become more friendly to pedestrians and mass transit options.
I do not know where gas prices will be in 8-10 years and anyone who claims they do is lying. Now, could they go to that level? Sure, as much as they could plummet downward.
Having said that, humans are very adaptable creatures and if we had to adapt to the conditions you describe, we would as we would have to.
The pessimist in me says people LOVE cars and LOATHE public transportation and they will pay a lot more to preserve the status quo.
The optimist in me thinks that perhaps with solar and other technologies, we are where the CD Player was in the early 80s- desirable but highly expensive. A CDP was around $700.00 then. Now you can get a better one for $150.00.
Me, I prefer the walkable communities. But I could not afford to get into my old neighborhood (see above) and thus have yielded most of my options. But--- I can still walk to the Metro.
I do not know where gas prices will be in 8-10 years and anyone who claims they do is lying. Now, could they go to that level? Sure, as much as they could plummet downward.
Having said that, humans are very adaptable creatures and if we had to adapt to the conditions you describe, we would as we would have to.
The pessimist in me says people LOVE cars and LOATHE public transportation and they will pay a lot more to preserve the status quo.
The optimist in me thinks that perhaps with solar and other technologies, we are where the CD Player was in the early 80s- desirable but highly expensive. A CDP was around $700.00 then. Now you can get a better one for $150.00.
Me, I prefer the walkable communities. But I could not afford to get into my old neighborhood (see above) and thus have yielded most of my options. But--- I can still walk to the Metro.
Haha, I agree, it is hard to tell where gas prices will be in 10 years.
I don't see gas prices plummeting though. Not with China and India greatly developing and needing more and more oil themselves. These countries have 3 times or more the population of the entire United States. If they started consuming as much as the United States, "shudder".
I honestly do think that we will have alternatives to fuel. I just don't know if they will be developed in time of skyrocketing oil prices or if they will be economically efficient by that time.
We may come to a "crunch" period, where we are caught in the middle of skyrocketing oil prices and finding alternatives. After this "crunch" period, we might have a great economically feasible alternative and we can live the same way again as before. The worry is how long this "crunch" period will take or how drastic it will be.
A few decades ago, gas prices were rising wildly and "no one" forsaw them going anywhere but upwards. And yet, they came down. They may yet again come down. But I will say this: never underestimate the capacity for human beings to adapt!
Hate to quote you again, Moth, but you'll see in a minute what I'm getting at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth
What percentage does avail themselves to these options? I have visited Denver a few times (great place, loved it) and could not help but notice endless traffic jams, even during non-rush hour times.
From the Denver forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast
You know what's really funny are all the local people who just now figured out that Denver even has a mass transit. I've been riding the bus for years, and especially now that I'm in the burbs. When I lived downtown I walked more. But now I walk or drive depending on the weather exactly a mile to my bus stop. My firm pays for my eco pass, so what's to lose? I love reading and drinking my tea and watching the lines stack up on I-25 as we blow past on the HOV. I don't love the time I spend on the bus, but I'm trying to keep a positive outlook.
So for the last 4 yrs., the buses going downtown from Wagon Road Park and Ride are almost always standing room only. Especially the 122x. The 120x runs more frequently. My bus is not either of these currently, although I can choose to ride them. My problem with Wagon Road is that since I go to work later, I cannot park there ever. It's definitely gotten worse with more riders.
I guess the amusing part is to hear from people who say, I didn't know a bus went by my house. They are also shocked at the price. It can get hefty.
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