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I know the difference between a New England City and Town (Metropolitan) Area and an MSA in the rest of the country, and why they exist: Counties are vestigial at best in at least three of the six New England states and have been abolished in Connecticut and all but abolished in Massachusetts.
Now, go back to that Census Reporter URL and page you linked for Lynn.
Here's the heading on that page:
Lynn-Salem-Marblehead, MA NECTA Division
IOW, this is the New England equivalent of a "metropolitan division" in the rest of the country, not a separate MSA or NECTA.
No, it's not, not at all. We have Metropolitan Division AND NECTA Divisions. Those are two different things. they're not equivalent.
NECTA divisions are way smaller than a Metropolitan divisions and even a large NECTA like Bostons doesn't have the same boundaries as the MSA for obvious reasons. So IDk how you can call that the same as a metropolitan division if a smaller NECTA division is 176k people and a Boston Metro Division has 2 million.
For instance, the Boston NECTA has areas that aren't in the Boston SA and excludes some areas that are.
There's no analog to the NECTA in Philly.
Camden Metro Division has 1.46 M people. a Lynn NECTA has 176k. There are dozens of NECTA divisions....
BTW Counties were abolished in Rhode Island the same time they were abolished in CT.
No, it's not, not at all. We have Metropolitan Division AND NECTA Divisions. Those are two different things. they're not equivalent.
NECTA divisions are way smaller than a Metropolitan divisions and even a large NECTA like Bostons doesn't have the same boundaries as the MSA for obvious reasons. So IDk how you can call that the same as a metropolitan division if a smaller NECTA division is 176k people and a Boston Metro Division has 2 million.
For instance, the Boston NECTA has areas that aren't in the Boston SA and excludes some areas that are.
There's no analog to the NECTA in Philly.
Camden Metro Division has 1.46 M people. a Lynn NECTA has 176k. There are dozens of NECTA divisions....
BTW Counties were abolished in Rhode Island the same time they were abolished in CT.
Um, look at the territory of the Boston Metro NECTA. It includes the Lynn NECTA Division.
Compare that to the Philadelphia and Camden Metropolitan Divisions of the Philadelphia MSA. Same difference, different base unit of government, that's all. One is clearly nested within the other.
To back up my assertion further: This Bureau of Labor Statistics page lists all the MSAs and Metropolitan NECTAs that have divisions, along with their divisions. Look at the divisions listed under the Boston Metro NECTA.
Thanks for filling me in on the status of counties in Rhode Island.
Um, look at the territory of the Boston Metro NECTA. It includes the Lynn NECTA Division.
Compare that to the Philadelphia and Camden Metropolitan Divisions of the Philadelphia MSA. Same difference, different base unit of government, that's all. One is clearly nested within the other.
Just because its a division of an area doesn't mean it's anything like the Camden Metro division lol. It's two different things entirely. The Lynn-Salem Necta serves to highlight the region that is Lynn-Salem...you dont have tiny metro division sthat small in Philly. The closest equivalent is a PUMA/PUMS which is still not the same as a NECTA Boston has two Metro Divisions as opposed to a bunch of NECTA divisions.
Just get rid of the current liquor license system in Boston entirely! Cambridge has had no-cost licenses since 1981 and has been fine!
Boils down to Taunton and Nashua, no? And Portsmouth is excluded?
Boston NECTA rightfully takes in Nashua and excludes Portsmouth IMO. I've been to Nashua know that people commute from there. Portsmouth is giving me solid Northern new England vacation town of little real significance were it not for this board i would have never heard about it.-definitely its own NECTA And Taunton is a good inclusion. Boston NECTA takes in a good bit of Bristol County it would otherwise leave out like Mansfield.
Just because its a division of an area doesn't mean it's anything like the Camden Metro division lol. It's two different things entirely. The Lynn-Salem Necta serves to highlight the region that is Lynn-Salem...you dont have tiny metro division sthat small in Philly. The closest equivalent is a PUMA/PUMS which is still not the same as a NECTABoston has two Metro Divisions as opposed to a bunch of NECTA divisions.
The point you're missing is: Because the base unit of government is the city and town rather than the county for an NECTA, you are going to have smaller, less populous "divisions" within a metropolitan NECTA than you will in a county-based MSA. I do understand that there are still county-based MSAs in New England, but the NECTA is a locality-based analog to the county-based MSA, devised to recognize the significance of the town and city in those six states (and thus come up with more precise definitions of a metropolis than obtain elsewhere in the US).
The metropolitan NECTA and the NECTA division are indeed analogous to the MSA and the metropolitan division. I never said they were the exact same thing, but I did say they measured the same thing but with a different base unit.
Regarding the sentence I boldfaced: That BLS table and that geographic map on the Census reporter say otherwise. According to the BLS, there are only 11 metropolitan regions in the US that are large enough to be carved up into divisions, and one of those 11 is the Boston Metropolitan NECTA — the only NECTA that's large enough (it's close to the Philadelphia MSA in population). Did you look at the BLS table? It lists all 10 of the NECTA divisions of the Boston Metro NECTA, and Lynn-Salem is one of them. (Note also that the table makes no mention of the county-based Boston MSA — that indicates to me that the BLS at least regards the NECTA as the statistical equivalent of the MSA in the rest of the country. But to your point about MSAs, the closer analog to the NECTA would be the "urbanized area," which omits the non-urban portions of counties.)
Edited to add: Basically, what started this was your statement to the effect that Lynn was a separate (municipality-based) "metropolitan" area from Boston — that is, a completely independent NECTA. The MSA-based equivalent of that would be multiple MSAs within a CSA. But instead, it's a division of a larger metropolitan NECTA — the statistical equivalent of a metropolitan division within an MSA rather than an MSA within a CSA.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 04-07-2022 at 10:41 AM..
The point you're missing is: Because the base unit of government is the city and town rather than the county for an NECTA, you are going to have smaller, less populous "divisions" within a metropolitan NECTA than you will in a county-based MSA. I do understand that there are still county-based MSAs in New England, but the NECTA is a locality-based analog to the county-based MSA, devised to recognize the significance of the town and city in those six states (and thus come up with more precise definitions of a metropolis than obtain elsewhere in the US).
The metropolitan NECTA and the NECTA division are indeed analogous to the MSA and the metropolitan division. I never said they were the exact same thing, but I did say they measured the same thing but with a different base unit.
Regarding the sentence I boldfaced: That BLS table and that geographic map on the Census reporter say otherwise. According to the BLS, there are only 11 metropolitan regions in the US that are large enough to be carved up into divisions, and one of those 11 is the Boston Metropolitan NECTA — the only NECTA that's large enough (it's close to the Philadelphia MSA in population). Did you look at the BLS table? It lists all the NECTA divisions of the Boston Metro NECTA, and Lynn-Salem is one of them.
this is silly. You don't have anything analogous to a NECTA- if you did, you could show me. You're explaining a NECTA to me in terms I already understand (town government)
Standalone NECTAs exist with or without a Census Designated MSA . See the Danbury and Waterbury CT and New Bedford MA NECTAs... those arent"divisions" A place like Willimantic has a Micropolitan NECTA but no Micropolitan Statistical Area.
Boston MSA is not the Boston NECTA. Two different things.
I don't understand your point. regardless this is totally beside the point of the thread anyway. And far away from the spirit ofMDAllsatr, and I's exchange in regard to Boston area suburbs and cities being unique, autonomous and old.
“A trio of Boston city councilors are pushing for hundreds more liquor licenses in the city, specifically in neighborhoods of color where there is a paucity of restaurants that can legally serve booze.
Specifically, the councilors want the state to give the city the ability to grant up to an additional 200 nontransferable all-alcohol licenses over a three-year period; all of these would be distributed in Dorchester, Mattapan, Roxbury, and Hyde Park. Their proposed home rule petition, which needs Beacon Hill approval, also calls for the number of licenses in Boston to increase 10 percent over a decade’s time.
Framing the issue as one of equity, Councilor Brian Worrell, one of the measure’s sponsors, said the move is necessary because of neighborhoods such as Mattapan. It’s the most diverse neighborhood in the city but has just 10 liquor licenses, he said, out of the city’s 1,400-plus licenses.
Worrell also pointed out that Blue Hill Avenue, a street that cuts from Mattapan Square through Dorchester, into Grove Hall, and toward Nubian Square in Roxbury, only has six restaurant liquor licenses along its entire 4-mile stretch. The thoroughfare is considered to be one of Boston’s most historic corridors but also one of its most neglected.”
….
The additional licenses would be nontransferable, meaning they would be given to restaurant owners at no cost, but would revert back to city authorities if the original receiving restaurant closed down. Transferable, nonrestricted licenses can be bought and sold by restaurant owners on the open market.
City leaders have advocated for more licenses, and other reforms in that sector, for years. As a city councilor, Representative Ayanna Pressley pushed through reforms that created 75 new licenses. Former mayor Martin J. Walsh and current Councilor Frank Baker have also pressed for more licenses in years past. In 2020, Councilor Lydia Edwards broached liquor licensing reform, raising the prospect of the city buying liquor licenses from struggling establishments and leasing such licenses back to establishment operators.
--I’m sure this wont move for a year.. but wow would that be a game changer. This would fundamentally shift Boston. All those vacant lots I showed earlier could be more quickly eaten up if these neighborhoods develop mature and trendy restaurant scenes and are not kept artificially ghettoized. The truth is white people aren’t going to move into these areas so long be as every place is low end take out in the form of Fried Chicken, West Indian, Chinese, Greek pizza, Italian pizza, and $4 Vietnamese banh Mi. All the over regulations in MA keep an artificially ghettoized neighborhoods in Boston that could develop more wealth and be more vibrant if actually allowed to compete. Boston has been fighting state for a long time but now it might finally be able to make the change by utilizing the racial equity lens.
The double edged sword is this could readily invite more gentrification if not also granted rent control from the state (unlikely imo). South End used to be black but it’s now one of the cities greatest restaurant scenes and greatest example of gentrification. Once the neighborhood become a place to live and hang out and not just exist and survive the folks with disposable incomes who typically like a drink with a quality meal- stay in the neighborhood. That currently only happens at the Haley House in Nubian Square. In a non-residential block/parking lot.
I fear that this has contributed mightily to gentrification in NW and NE DC as well as Brooklyn and Harlem. It’s been Boston’s main line of defense so far as I can tell.
This is very significant. It will surely promote development in Dorchester, Mattapan, Roxbury, and Hyde Park. Do you think Boston being an urban city like DC and NYC will attract young Black professionals to these new market rate buildings in those neighborhoods?
A debate about the desire for young Black professionals to live in predominantly Black urban environments has been taking place in other threads when referring to cities in the south like Atlanta. The prevailing argument has been that for cities known to attract Black urban professionals like DC and NYC, many prefer urban environments near transit (in new construction specifically for DC) in predominantly Black neighborhoods while Atlanta, which also attracts young Black professionals, they prefer a more suburban lifestyle.
Do you believe the new construction of buildings in Dorchester, Mattapan, Roxbury, and Hyde Park will be predominantly leased to young Black professionals or people from other races? That will have a great impact on the neighborhood composition of those areas in the future.
The United States Office of Management and Budget delineates New England city and town areas (NECTAs) as a city/town-based set of areas conceptually similar to county-based "core based statistical areas" (CBSAs). The general concept of a metropolitan or micropolitan NECTA is that of a core area containing a substantial population nucleus, together with adjacent communities having a high degree of economic and social integration with that core. Metropolitan NECTAs contain at least one urbanized area of 50,000 or more population; micropolitan NECTAs contain at least one urban cluster of at least 10,000 and less than 50,000 population. If specified criteria are met, a metropolitan NECTA containing a single urban core with a population of 2.5 million or more may be subdivided into NECTA divisions, which function as
distinct areas within the larger NECTA. There are 21 metropolitan NECTAs, one of which is subdivided into 11 metropolitan NECTA divisions, and 19 micropolitan NECTAs in New England as of March 2020.
Combined NECTAs (CNECTAs) are groupings of adjacent metropolitan and/or micropolitan NECTA areas that have social and economic ties as measured by commuting to work, but at lower levels than are found among cities and towns within individual NECTAs. CNECTAs can be characterized as representing larger regions that reflect wider-ranging social and economic interactions, such as wholesaling, commodity distribution, and weekend recreation activities, as well as lower levels of daily commuting interaction. Under the 2010 Standards for Delineating Metropolitan and Micropolitan Statistical Areas, a CNECTA is identified when two adjacent NECTAs have an employment interchange measure (EIM) of at least 15. (The EIM is defined as the sum of the percentage of employed residents of the smaller area who work in the larger area and the percentage of employment in the smaller area that is accounted for by workers who reside in the larger area.) There are 7 CNECTAs containing 30 NECTAs in New England as of March 2020.
(emphasis added. The definitions of the NECTAs and NECTA divisions were revised after that BLS table appeared in 2018; there's now one more NECTA division within the Boston Metro NECTA.)
That map also shows Lynn-Salem-Marblehead as an NECTA division within the Boston-Cambridge-Newton Metropolitan NECTA. The units and subunits aren't the same, but the relationship between unit and subunit is. That was my point.
this is silly. You don't have anything analogous to a NECTA- if you did, you could show me. You're explaining a NECTA to me in terms I already understand (town government)
Standalone NECTAs exist with or without a Census Designated MSA . See the Danbury and Waterbury CT and New Bedford MA NECTAs... those arent"divisions" A place like Willimantic has a Micropolitan NECTA but no Micropolitan Statistical Area.
Boston MSA is not the Boston NECTA. Two different things.
I don't understand your point. regardless this is totally beside the point of the thread anyway. And far away from the spirit ofMDAllsatr, and I's exchange in regard to Boston area suburbs and cities being unique, autonomous and old.
New England is a region as distinct from the rest of the country as the South is, I will grant you that.
But it's not so distinct that it doesn't have cities that were once centers in their own right but have since been absorbed into the orbit of a larger nearby city. ISTR another thread here where there's some debate about this concerning Providence, which I think both you and I would consider a separate and distinct metropolitan center from Boston but some are arguing is now a "satellite city" as Wilmington, Del., is to Philadelphia. I added the reason why I responded after you replied to my prior post:
Quote:
Edited to add: Basically, what started this was your statement to the effect that Lynn was a separate (municipality-based) "metropolitan" area from Boston — that is, a completely independent NECTA. The MSA-based equivalent of that would be multiple MSAs within a CSA. But instead, it's a division of a larger metropolitan NECTA — the statistical equivalent of a metropolitan division within an MSA rather than an MSA within a CSA.
I do find it interesting that Boston is considering adding liquor licenses to some parts of the city rather than spreading them across the city. I presume this is to stimulate economic development and/or nightlife in those areas?
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