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This is very significant. It will surely promote development in Dorchester, Mattapan, Roxbury, and Hyde Park. Do you think Boston being an urban city like DC and NYC will attract young Black professionals to these new market rate buildings in those neighborhoods?
A debate about the desire for young Black professionals to live in predominantly Black urban environments has been taking place in other threads when referring to cities in the south like Atlanta. The prevailing argument has been that for cities known to attract Black urban professionals like DC and NYC, many prefer urban environments near transit (in new construction specifically for DC) in predominantly Black neighborhoods while Atlanta, which also attract young Black professionals, they prefer a more suburban lifestyle.
Do you believe the new construction of buildings in Dorchester, Mattapan, Roxbury, and Hyde Park will be predominantly leased to young Black professionals or people from other races? That will have a great impact on the neighborhood composition of those areas in the future.
Boston already is an urban city, in my opinion- more so than DC, for various reasons. That's kind of why it rests on its laurels. But its nightlife lacks (very vibrant during the day). And its integration lacking. don't think that the liquor licenses in Hyde Park Roxbury and Mattapan change the city at large. But will have massive impacts on those areas. The liquor licenses won't fundamentally make it an "urban" city -but it would be a development boon.
As for black people moving in? I don't know, I guess so it will simply be a matter of is it affordable and in line with those salaries. Black professionals already live in and move into Roxbury and Dorchester as a point of pride and because the architecture styles are very attractive and the homes there are still much cheaper than 90% of the Boston urban core. Only like Malden Revere Lynn and Quincy are cheaper. So it's very much a thing but just not at all to the extent they do in NYC. But I could be wrong as they're both see identical patterns in their black populations. However, Hyde Park and Mattapan don't have that right now. Well, I guess sort of Hyde Park...
It's hard for me to imagine whit people mostly moving into these neighborhoods especially as they're still leaving Hyde Park and Mattapan from 2010 to 2020. But I'm sure its possible. I think it would be predominately non-white in the form of Hispanic Black and Middle Eastern with a significant chunk of white people (far above preexisting levels).
If this comes to fruition the All-Inclusive Boston ad campaign needs to become more visible and start advertising outside of New England. In general, right now is a major major transition period for Boston and environs. I've never seen a time like this before so I really don't know what the city will be like in 4-5 years. I've seen a huge increase since mayor wu took over in terms of single-day liquor licenses in black areas and the conversion of restaurants into quasi nightclubs at night as they stay open well beyond they're standard closing hours and play music, loudly. One of Mayor Wu's major campaign promises was to bring fun and entertainment to all sections of Boston and its clear the environment has changed quickly.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 04-07-2022 at 11:12 AM..
Boston already is an urban city, in my opinion- more so than DC, for various reasons. That's kind of why it rests on its laurels. But its nightlife lacks (very vibrant during the day). And its integration lacking. don't think that the liquor licenses in Hyde Park Roxbury and Mattapan change the city at large. But will have massive impacts on those areas. The liquor licenses won't fundamentally make it an "urban" city -but it would be a development boon.
As for black people moving in? I don't know, I guess so it will simply be a matter of is it affordable and in line with those salaries. Black professionals already live in and move into Roxbury and Dorchester as a point of pride and because the architecture styles are very attractive and the homes there are still much cheaper than 90% of the Boston urban core. Only like Malden Revere Lynn and Quincy are cheaper. So it's very much a thing but just not at all to the extent they do in NYC. But I could be wrong as they're both see identical patterns in their black populations. However, Hyde Park and Mattapan don't have that right now. Well, I guess sort of Hyde Park...
It's hard for me to imagine whit people mostly moving into these neighborhoods especially as they're still leaving Hyde Park and Mattapan from 2010 to 2020. But I'm sure its possible. I think it would be predominately non-white in the form of Hispanic Black and Middle Eastern with a significant chunk of white people (far above preexisting levels).
If this comes to fruition the All-Inclusive Boston ad campaign needs to become more visible and start advertising outside of New England. In general, right now is a major major transition period for Boston and environs. I've never seen a time like this before so I really don't know what the city will be like in 4-5 years. I've seen a huge increase since mayor wu took over in terms of single-day liquor licenses in black areas and the conversion of restaurants into quasi nightclubs at night as they stay open well beyond they're standard closing hours and play music, loudly. One of Mayor Wu's major campaign promises was to bring fun and entertainment to all sections of Boston and its clear the environment has changed quickly.
Well, I asked that question because I know Boston doesn't have the young Black professional scene of DC/NYC/ATL. Boston seems to be more an immigrant West Indian scene versus a Black scene. Obviously, they produce completely different vibes with one being American Black while the other being foreign culturally. I thought it would be very interesting to see if the young Black professionals you see moving to Ward 7 and 8 and Prince George's County in DC or Harlem in NYC would create the same type of American Black vibe seen in those cities.
Well, I asked that question because I know Boston doesn't have the young Black professional scene of DC/NYC/ATL. Boston seems to be more an immigrant West Indian scene versus a Black scene. Obviously, they produce completely different vibes with one being American Black while the other being foreign culturally. I thought it would be very interesting to see if the young Black professionals you see moving to Ward 7 and 8 and Prince George's County in DC or Harlem in NYC would create the same type of American Black vibe seen in those cities.
I don't really agree. Boston is no more West Indian than New York is. It's the same scene more or less. Is there gonna be a point where the Black American scene surpasses and grows where the West Indian scene doesn't?- no. This dichotomy isn't how Boston operates or sees things. Completely different vibes? No not at all it's the same scene. There are not enough black people and ethnic segregation to have two completely different scenes. It's just the Black Boston scene if it's too West Indian for Black Americans or too "fake West India" for West Indians then you won't like it. This is what West Indians often say about Boston- too many West Indians in name only. I certainly don't think one is going to grow while the other slows down. Jazz Urbane Cafe is entering into the Bolling Building and is owned by a Black American Professor from Berklee College of Music. https://www.jazzurbane.com/bill-b
ABOUT JAZZ URBANE CAFE
Jazz Urbane Cafe is a new arts and restaurant venture planned to launch in Fall 2022 in Boston’s Nubian Square neighborhood. Jazz Urbane Cafe will be an urban arts venue that spotlights local and national artists who define and celebrate the diverse cultural traditions that make Boston a unique and global city. Complementing our performance series will be an exciting dining program designed to make the Cafe a full sensory experience.
For instance, the new black restaurant Pearl is Black American-owned. Park 54 is a trio of ownerships a mix of Trinidadian-Bostonian and two African Americans from New Jersey and Chicago. The owners of Jackfruit everything that I linked to in my last comment - I have no idea what their ethnicity is Doesn't matter to me. But I had an African American female friend and a Haitian-Jamaican male friend both attend.
^I don't see how more liquor licenses would change this pre-existing dynamic. If anything there's a growing African scene/vibe in Boston but it's really all in one. Most of our club vents are "hip hop vs dancehall" or "international hip hop rnb dancehall" and even taglines to our radio stations "Love Hip Hop, Love Dancehall, Love RnB, Love B87 Boston". Or Flames restaurant "Where the South Meets the Islands"
Like people like ASAP Rocky, or Bobby Shmurda, Pop Smoke, Jim Jones, Fabolous, or Kodak Black are West Indian but o you think they're not a part of African American culture or don't hang out in AA settings and visa versa? In these areas its too hectoic to keep tabs like that. Its not even feasible rreally
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 04-07-2022 at 12:27 PM..
Keep in Mind Black and Latinos combined are ~20% of the Boston area, maybe 25% if you exclude New Hampshire. That's the black population of DC MSA but actually smaller because the area is less populous. The luxury of African vs West Indian vs Black American doesnt exist in Boston due to strength in numbers. We cant even really split Latino off from Black. Itisnt the mid-atlantic.
I know Haitian-Cape Verdeans, Puerto-Rican-Americans etc. I had a Haitian student named *Tavar Jackson* (slightly modified for privacy)his absentee father was Haitian but his mom was black American. That's suuuuper normal.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 04-07-2022 at 12:07 PM..
As I've said before, people really really really overrate differences between West Indian descendants and multigenerational African Americans. Like north of the Mason-Dixon line, there is not this big division between AAs and Caribbean folks like some think there is.
As I've said before, people really really really overrate differences between West Indian descendants and multigenerational African Americans. Like north of the Mason-Dixon line, there is not this big division between AAs and Caribbean folks like some think there is.
We've said this many times. It's really minor. It's not even information you would be privy too like that. There are a lot of people who don't even know what their grandparents' ancestry is. Just maybe this or that..
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 04-07-2022 at 03:12 PM..
I don't really agree. Boston is no more West Indian than New York is. It's the same scene more or less. Is there gonna be a point where the Black American scene surpasses and grows where the West Indian scene doesn't?- no. This dichotomy isn't how Boston operates or sees things. Completely different vibes? No not at all it's the same scene. There are not enough black people and ethnic segregation to have two completely different scenes. It's just the Black Boston scene if it's too West Indian for Black Americans or too "fake West India" for West Indians then you won't like it. This is what West Indians often say about Boston- too many West Indians in name only. I certainly don't think one is going to grow while the other slows down. Jazz Urbane Cafe is entering into the Bolling Building and is owned by a Black American Professor from Berklee College of Music. https://www.jazzurbane.com/bill-b
ABOUT JAZZ URBANE CAFE
Jazz Urbane Cafe is a new arts and restaurant venture planned to launch in Fall 2022 in Boston’s Nubian Square neighborhood. Jazz Urbane Cafe will be an urban arts venue that spotlights local and national artists who define and celebrate the diverse cultural traditions that make Boston a unique and global city. Complementing our performance series will be an exciting dining program designed to make the Cafe a full sensory experience.
For instance, the new black restaurant Pearl is Black American-owned. Park 54 is a trio of ownerships a mix of Trinidadian-Bostonian and two African Americans from New Jersey and Chicago. The owners of Jackfruit everything that I linked to in my last comment - I have no idea what their ethnicity is Doesn't matter to me. But I had an African American female friend and a Haitian-Jamaican male friend both attend.
^I don't see how more liquor licenses would change this pre-existing dynamic. If anything there's a growing African scene/vibe in Boston but it's really all in one. Most of our club vents are "hip hop vs dancehall" or "international hip hop rnb dancehall" and even taglines to our radio stations "Love Hip Hop, Love Dancehall, Love RnB, Love B87 Boston". Or Flames restaurant "Where the South Meets the Islands"
Like people like ASAP Rocky, or Bobby Shmurda, Pop Smoke, Jim Jones, Fabolous, or Kodak Black are West Indian but o you think they're not a part of African American culture or don't hang out in AA settings and visa versa? In these areas its too hectoic to keep tabs like that. Its not even feasible rreally
I think my reference was related to the videos and events you have posted for Boston's Black scene which have been heavily West Indian versus American Black. There is a difference between them, but it's not a superiority conversation like White Americans compared to Black American/West Indian which leads to the definition of racism. It's just a distinction between cultures similar to Italian, Irish, and French.
People I know that say they are going to a restaurant in DC like Halfsmoke or Stop Smack'n which happen to be Black owned just say the restaurant name. When people I know say they are going to Pimento Grill which happens to be West Indian owned serving West Indian cuisine, they say I'm going to that Caribbean or West Indian restaurant Pimento Grill. Now, this could be because the people referencing the restaurant aren't West Indian, but that is actually the point I'm making anyway.
I agree Boston is probably as West Indian as New York, but the places I would refer to as Black Businesses in Harlem wouldn't be those displaying or promoting West Indian culture. I have said this before, I think West Indian businesses exist in most cities all over the nation.
Idk-neither the Pearl nor the other link I shared are West Indian events. I don’t know what links you’re referring to but there are more various explicitly West Indian themed than explicitly African American because there’s more of them than African Americans. But most events don’t advertise by specific ethnicity. with few exceptions you have Juneteenth but you also have Carribean Carnival. You have Roxbury Unity Parade but you also have Haitian Flag Day parade.
I don’t think it will change because of liquor licenses or not. It’s always gout I be a mix of various cultures- West Africans, Black Americans, Cape Verdeans, Haitians, Black Latinos and Other West Indians. There’s no culture war/jockeying whatever happens will happen. But Boston will never become DC.
But also far more hip hop or RnB acts, far more African Americans artists and speakers come through Boston than West Indian acts because this is the US and that’s the default..so West Indian folks need their shows and events. But in regards to a West Indian restaurant I wouldn’t say West Indian or that Carribean place. I wouldn’t say what type of food- it’s just food. As an African American I grew up eating the food of the diaspora since a young age. If people ask further then I’d say the type of food. I know Vaughns Fish and Chips (black American) I know Suya Joint (Broadly West African) I know Savvor (West Indian/American fusion) I know the Pearl (American seafood) Zaz (West Indian/Asian). If I ever want catfish and grits I can go to Maxine on St James in Nubian Square or Brothers in Mattapan Square.
It's a very cosmopolitan vibe, when it comes to ethnic diversity (IRL not the Irish-American tourism promo), especially in the black community. If it weren't a mix of all the black cultures it wouldn't be "Boston" to me.
Speakers, exhibits, galas, and most of our black political class have been African American. Until this recent election where almost all the black councilors are West Indian or at least partially West Indian now. The 2017 City Council had no West Indians on it at all. There's a lot of nuance in it all but I don't think development will attract more West Indians than it already does or more black Americans than it already does.
As I've said before, people really really really overrate differences between West Indian descendants and multigenerational African Americans. Like north of the Mason-Dixon line, there is not this big division between AAs and Caribbean folks like some think there is.
If by that you mean that ADOS and Caribbean-Americans do not see themselves as at odds with each other, I agree.
But we can distinguish between Caribbean and American Black culture, events and establishments. One of the events that brings the distinction out here in Philadelphia is the Penn Relays, the oldest collegiate track and field meet in the country, usually held on the last weekend in April. Many of the runners who compete in the Relays are Jamaican, and it is said that Penn Relays weekend is "a national holiday" there.
When I worked at Penn, I looked forward to Relays weekend because it meant I would have my pick from dozens of Jamaican food trucks that set up shop around Franklin Field for the event. And where I live now, there are two Jamaican takeout restaurants near me, one in the next block west and another better-known one five blocks east that also operates a couple of trucks. (BTW and FWIW, Philly's Black LGBTQ Pride celebration coincides with Penn Relays weekend.)
But I think your larger point about exaggerating the differences holds. The building next door to me houses a Haitian Evangelical Baptist church. This church regularly holds food giveaways for neighborhood residents, no questions asked.
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