African American Diaspora: City vs. City Neighborhoods (versus, store)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
None technically. Because IRL the 80%+ black census tracts are basically all in Roxbury and Dorchester but they’re in smaller subsections of those areas.
The blacker subsections at that 70%+ range at probably
Roxbury
-Nubian Square
-Dudley-Brunswick-King
-Magnolia-Intervale-Columbia (kind of the same as DBK)
-Upper Roxbury
-Grove Hall
-Elm Hill
-Orchard Gardens
-Madison Park
Dorchester:
-Four Corners
-Frankie Hill
-Franklin Field
-West of Washington
-Codman Square
-Bowdoin-Geneva
Hyde Park:
-RiverWood
Mattapan:
-all of it
So Mattapan is the only real Black neighborhood from that perspective. It’s unapologetically Black and full of culture so the city should leverage that. I think those are the only neighborhoods where this works. You have to get in when they are still completely Black so the people that take advantage of it are also completely Black. If you don’t, the new development will be full of races other than Black people.
It seems like the perception issues can be changed from a business community and social perception perspective if the city moves to change it in Mattapan first by investing. That is what the city did in Congress Heights which was not a place people wanted to live before 2010.
So Mattapan is the only real Black neighborhood from that perspective. It’s unapologetically Black and full of culture so the city should leverage that. I think those are the only neighborhoods where this works. You have to get in when they are still completely Black so the people that take advantage of it are also completely Black.
It seems like the perception issues can be changed from a business community and social perception perspective if the city moves to change it in Mattapan first by investing. That is what the city did in Congress Heights which was not a place people wanted to live before 2010.
Yea I mean I guess but really Roxbury is much more of a cultural conduit and gather place for the black community. I’m saying this as someone from much closer to Mattapan than Roxbury. But mentally/historically/physically my family is rooted in Roxbury.
It’s like asking where the black cultural capital of New York is and then saying because Harlem isn’t 70% black throughout or Brooklyn is only 30-% black it can’t be those places. Or Inglewood or what have you. Institutions and prominence factors in. I’d say Roxbury has more of a pro-black type culture or aggressively black culture than Mattapan for that reason but that’s debatable
And then fun a numbers standpoint there are more black peoples in Dorchester than there are people in Mattapan. Additionally you have older members of the white community who simply refer to Mattapan as a part of Dorchester (I guess at some point it was, especially before black people came to Mattapan)… Mattapan got its black population after Dorchester and well after Roxbury. And back in the 2000s it was kind of looked at differently because it was so Haitian, attitudes have changed and it gets more love now but yea..some context.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 10-24-2022 at 04:07 PM..
Yea I mean I guess but really Roxbury is much more of a cultural conduit and gather place for the black community. I’m saying this as someone from much closer to Mattapan than Roxbury. But mentally/historically/physically my family is rooted in Roxbury.
It’s like aski NY where the black cultural capital of New York is and then saying because Harlem isn’t 70% black throughout or Brooklyn is only 30-% black it can’t be those places. Or Inglewood or what have you. Institutions and prominence factors in. I’d say Roxbury has more of a pro-black type culture or aggressively black culture than Mattapan for that reason but that’s debatable
And then fun a numbers standpoint there are more black peoples in Dorchester than there are people in Mattapan. Additionally you have older members of the white community who simply refer to Mattapan as a part of Dorchester (I guess at some point it was, especially before black people came to Mattapan)… Mattapan got its black population at the r Dorchester and well after Roxbury. And back in the 2000s it was kind of looked at differently because it was so Haitian, attitudes have changed and it gets more love now but yea..some context.
Roxbury from a history standpoint in Boston would be the equivalent to what Shaw has been for DC? It seems to already be attracting tons of private sector investment right?
If so, that’s not where the city of Boston needs to invest public dollars. The neighborhoods not seeing any private sector investment is where the city needs to go. I would say the reluctance you have to this discussion is even more reason why Boston should invest there. Built it, and they will come. The perception and narrative that I’m sure exists is exactly what the fight is for.
When cities start realizing they have to be first in distressed neighborhoods is when Black neighborhoods will become bustling booming places that are patronized by mainly Black people still. Investment where private sector investment is means the ship has sailed and other people know about it already. I think we have examples of that being true all over the world.
I think the point I’m pushing is relevant in every city. Right now, what is the most significant Black neighborhood in DC? It is Shaw which has U street where Black people party and Howard University, but I believe the next 50 years will push the Black entertainment east of the river to Ward 7 and 8. I think the Black entertainment in Harlem will move to Brooklyn over the next 50 years too. You don’t see the same thing happening in Boston? Didn’t you say Mattapan is getting Blacker?
One thing that is true but unfortunate in America is that investment follows White people, not Black people. That is what needs to change. Cities can begin to change that narrative. White people have moved to Roxbury and Dorchester so investment followed them there.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 10-24-2022 at 04:06 PM..
Well most of what happening in Roxbury is private investment on city owned parcels, with a mix of community and outside developers: not every parcel is being developed either. So it’s public-private. And Roxbury had a neighborhood strategic master plan made for it in 2004 and updated twice sense.
Mattapan isn’t getting blacker, it’s Latino population is growing a lot and it’s slightly whiter than in past years. Most minority population growth is in majority white neighborhoods except for Hyde Park and Roslindale.
Mattapan has less vacant properties because it wasn’t black until after the MLK riots. It also has much less ph luv housing and a lower share of renters so it’s not as easy to remove people. Like it’s not a reluctance it’s just not happening because Roxbury has a larger population and more political clout and social notoriety. They’re sort of a priority over Mattapan for the reasons listed. That’s not me- it’s just where it is, I think it’s reasonable to say Mattapan should get the city to really invest but it’s just less of a priority.
And on and on. I would say it almost plays the role of Shaw but there’s major differences. It isn’t really trendy among the white population and doesnt have anything like U Street: it’s long been known as little Harlem. Much there was a T stop but the El was removed in 1987.
Once Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology is relocated form the South End to here, the 5/6 new housing developments and Nubian Ascends goes up and the two nightclubs open? Yea much more. It will be akin to Shaw then but you won’t see many white people in Roxbury in general and certainly not on a weekend night. Maybe if Haley house has a poetry night but right now it’s pretty far from Shaw. It’s a bit more “raw” still and much more empty at night. It doesn’t have that surreal/icy/ spooky feeling it used to though.
Investment is coming to Hyde Park even as it becomes less white and Roxbury and Dorchester added less than white people between them over 10 years, it wasn’t exactly a gold rush. I think while in general that’s true there’s nowhere in Greater Boston that isn’t seeing investment… even as the white population declines in the area (possibly in the city). The only thing that holds up development is fervent and zealous community groups, lack of liquor licenses/lack of political will, and lack of by right zoning.
Well most of what happening in Roxbury is private investment on city owned parcels, with a mix of community and outside developers: not every parcel is being developed either. So it’s public-private. And Roxbury had a neighborhood strategic master plan made for it in 2004 and updated twice sense.
Mattapan isn’t getting blacker, it’s Latino population is growing a lot and it’s slightly whiter than in past years. Most minority population growth is in majority white neighborhoods except for Hyde Park and Roslindale.
Mattapan has less vacant properties because it wasn’t black until after the MLK riots. It also has much less ph luv housing and a lower share of renters so it’s not as easy to remove people. Like it’s not a reluctance it’s just not happening because Roxbury has a larger population and more political clout and social notoriety. They’re sort of a priority over Mattapan for the reasons listed. That’s not me- it’s just where it is, I think it’s reasonable to say Mattapan should get the city to really invest but it’s just less of a priority.
And on and on. I would say it almost plays the role of Shaw but there’s major differences. It isn’t really trendy among the white population and doesnt have anything like U Street: it’s long been known as little Harlem. Much there was a T stop but the El was removed in 1987.
Once Benjamin Franklin Institute of Technology is relocated form the South End to here, the 5/6 new housing developments and Nubian Ascends goes up and the two nightclubs open? Yea much more. It will be akin to Shaw then but you won’t see many white people in Roxbury in general and certainly not on a weekend night. Maybe if Haley house has a poetry night but right now it’s pretty far from Shaw. It’s a bit more “raw” still and much more empty at night. It doesn’t have that surreal/icy/ spooky feeling it used to though.
Investment is coming to Hyde Park even as it becomes less white and Roxbury and Dorchester added less than white people between them over 10 years, it wasn’t exactly a gold rush. I think while in general that’s true there’s nowhere in Greater Boston that isn’t seeing investment… even as the white population declines in the area (possibly in the city). The only thing that holds up development is fervent and zealous community groups, lack of liquor licenses/lack of political will, and lack of by right zoning.
That is sad, but if Mattapan isn't a priority for the city, it is what it is. I loved the video of Mattapan and it felt way Blacker compared to the videos you showed of Dorchester and Hype Park. The demographics remind me of east of the river neighborhoods here in DC and when I saw there are census block groups making over $100K that are 70-90% Black, I thought there might be hope for Boston yet. Most people don't realize Boston has a neighborhood like Mattapan. I wonder if the city government is to blame for that. What do you think?
**Roxbury and Dorchester added less than 2000 white people between them. (Above)
I know, they just don’t have the percentages of Black people Mattapan has. That was the point I was highlighting. You don’t find it interesting that the areas the city is focused on have higher White and Latino populations?
That is sad, but if Mattapan isn't a priority for the city, it is what it is. I loved the video of Mattapan and it felt way Blacker compared to the videos you showed of Dorchester and Hype Park. The demographics remind me of east of the river neighborhoods here in DC and when I saw there are census block groups making over $100K that are 70-90% Black, I thought there might be hope for Boston yet. Most people don't realize Boston has a neighborhood like Mattapan. I wonder if the city government is to blame for that. What do you think?
And maybe 1/3rd population of Dorchester. It’s less than 1/3rd the size of Dorchester. So you can find pretty extensive neighborhoods that are 70% + black in the areas in eastern Hyde Park next to Mattapan and in the heart of Dorchester. Remember Dorchester is 110,000 people… 1/6th if the entire city lives there.
The videos from Hyde Park and Dorchester are made to be a little more reflective of the diversity of neighborhood as they are made by the city for tourism purposes- not by local teens. And really- due to the geographic size of those neighborhoods they vary more than Mattapan. In DC they’d be several different “neighborhoods” but these neighborhoods were founded as independent towns with their own neighborhoods and were that for hundreds of years. That’s why Mattapan used to be a part of Dorchester, and West Roxbury used to include the neighborhoods of Roslindale and Jamaica Plain - two neighborhoods that currently touch Roxbury and we’re neighborhoods of the Town of West Roxbury in the past. Roslindale, like Mattapan and Mission Hill has only *truly* been considered a 100% distinct neighborhood since the 1950s/60s. The larger neighborhoods like Dorchester, West Roxbury, Roxbury, and Jamaica Plain all claimed portions of them. I had a white teacher from Roslindale who always told us how kids made fun of him for not having a neighborhood- that Roslindale was just a name on the map for the post office. I have met one or two olde Irish folks who say Mattapan is just Dorchester.
EOD They’re all gonna have things that make them a little different than SE DC. Allentza Michel (I know Ally) is Haitian as is Ruth Georges, The Pontes girl was Cape Verdean, and at least one was Latino.
I would say at least when I live in Mattapan it was neglected by the city. But investments in a new library, a new middle school, overhaul of almont park and revitalizing Clark farm were indicators to me after I moved out that the city had gotten on the straight and narrow.
It’s seeing development, it’s just well behind Roxbury and thats mostly due to geography- it’s not as though Hyde Park and West Roxbury see as much development as Roxbury or Dorchester- they don’t. I remember Roxbury still had habitat for humanity building there in 2012...
A California developer has filed plans to replace a billboard-topped vacant lot at 1471 Blue Hill Ave., at Culbert Street in Mattapan, with a five-story, 48-unit, all affordable apartment building.
In a filing with the BPDA, Lincoln Avenue Capital of Santa Monica, CA says all the studios, 1-, 2- and 3-bedroom units would be rented to people making between 30% and 70% of the Boston area median income - including people with Section 8 vouchers.
City Councilor Tania Fernandes Anderson (Roxbury) today proposed a halt on any further sales of city-owned vacant land in Roxbury for development until neighborhood residents get more of a say on what gets built on it before any RFPs to developers are published.
The council took no action on her proposal at its meeting today, instead sending it to a planning and development committee, chaired by Frank Baker (Dorchester) for a public hearing first.
Fernandes Anderson predicted residents would want anything other than affordable housing - of the sort the city has been promoting on numerous parking lots and other empty land in Nubian Square in recent years.
She told city councilors today that 54% of the apartments in Roxbury are already income-restricted, compared to 19.2% citywide and between 6% and 8% in Back Bay, Bay Village, Beacon Hill, the North End, the South Boston waterfront and Hyde Park. It's time those neighborhoods in particular did their share to support people who could not otherwise afford to live in them, she said.
"There is no denying low-income rental housing is needed in our city. but it is not needed in Roxbury," she said. Continuing to funnel such apartments into Roxbury only solidifies its role as a city message to the neighborhood that "you must remain impoverished," she said.
What Roxbury really needs now, she said, is more development of affordable condos and houses, so that residents can begin to build generational wealth, as well as such things as arts, culture, recreation, playgrounds and trees. Her comments come the week after the Zoning Board of Appeal approved two new Nubian Square projects with significant art and cultural components.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 10-24-2022 at 10:53 PM..
I know, they just don’t have the percentages of Black people Mattapan has. That was the point I was highlighting. You don’t find it interesting that the areas the city is focused on have higher White and Latino populations?
Interesting? Not really considering there are 18 main neighborhoods and only 1 is majority black throughout. And is 3rd furthest from the core. And its black so I doubt the city is that concerned with it because that’s America. The money is in more diverse places closer to downtown. IRL Mattapan is seeing a lot of public infrastructure investment from the city though. The city added two commuter rail stops and has put in the bike lanes and is now bringing bus lanes to blue hill avenue and restructuring the medians and eveything. The city also made 3 bus routes that terminate in Mattapan free for the past two years.
https://www.dotnews.com/2022/center-...ate-candidates
You have some so-called ‘leaders’ in the community decrying investment of any kind At the forum, the first question about the center-lane bus was asked of Dianne Wilkerson, who is making another run for the senate seat she last held over 10 years ago. She called the proposal “stupid,” adding, “the controversy is people are living with decisions that people make, and they don’t always know how they’ve been made, and they don’t make any sense what they do and there’s no process to un-do something that’s clearly stupid,” she said.
“You have to push a baby carriage to the middle of the street and walk up the stairs to get on the bus. It makes no sense whatsoever,” she said. “You feel like Roxbury, Dorchester, Mattapan, and Hyde Park are an experiment – the lab. It’s where they want to try stuff to see if it works before they go anywhere else.”
^Granted Dianne Wilkerson lives in Roxbury, but you get plenty of that in Mattapan too.
That is sad, but if Mattapan isn't a priority for the city, it is what it is. I loved the video of Mattapan and it felt way Blacker compared to the videos you showed of Dorchester and Hype Park. The demographics remind me of east of the river neighborhoods here in DC and when I saw there are census block groups making over $100K that are 70-90% Black, I thought there might be hope for Boston yet. Most people don't realize Boston has a neighborhood like Mattapan. I wonder if the city government is to blame for that. What do you think?
Maybe the city government will change their mind?
The city government isn’t to blame for that. I just watched a Patriots game on a national broadcast that played Shipping Off to Boston and highlighted Quincy Market and Bill Burr (a reminder, he is not from Boston and has barely ever lived there) . You think they’re gonna clip to Deatrich Wise’s block party in Mattapan? No. Maybe if it were in DC or Atlanta or even just Kansas City but the national media and media in general isn’t gonna highlight a place like Mattapan in New England. They had that good footage and went with cliches because it’s received well and digestible to the public. Regardless of what the city does no one is gonna know about a neighborhood like Mattapan without a personal connection or seeking it out and going there. Most people don’t know anything about what Dorchester or Hyde Park or that that exists in Boston either, so idk. The city can only do so much, they do a lot- doesnt mean there’s an audience for it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
