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^ This. Why live in Toronto and struggle to buy a $750,000 "modest" home (like I have seen on many episodes of "Love it or List It") when you can move to Rochester, NY or Buffalo, NY, earn slightly less money, and have a MUCH, MUCH lower cost-of-living?
I guess I don't understand why cheap North American cities aren't doing better now with the explosion of remote work options. If I could earn $120,000/year living and working in DC and was offered the opportunity to work remotely then why not move somewhere with a MUCH lower cost-of-living and invest the savings so I could retire potentially 5-10 years sooner later in life and travel more? I mean I did the whole "big city/big salary" thing briefly. It was stressful, and I had less discretionary income than I do now with a lower salary in a much cheaper city.
People will be like "but the culture!" How often are people really going to the opera or to museums or to shows? Generally just on the weekends for most, right? Well then why not live and work in Buffalo on a Toronto remote worker salary and then visit the high culture of Toronto on the weekends? What am I missing?
I’d assume one of the fears is a ROI. It took more than a decade for Detroit home prices to recover from where they were in 2005. That plus WFH is only as good as long as the job lasts. Many people like the security that comes from a growing job market, beyond all the incidentals that come with it.
^ This. Why live in Toronto and struggle to buy a $750,000 "modest" home (like I have seen on many episodes of "Love it or List It") when you can move to Rochester, NY or Buffalo, NY, earn slightly less money, and have a MUCH, MUCH lower cost-of-living?
I guess I don't understand why cheap North American cities aren't doing better now with the explosion of remote work options. If I could earn $120,000/year living and working in DC and was offered the opportunity to work remotely then why not move somewhere with a MUCH lower cost-of-living and invest the savings so I could retire potentially 5-10 years sooner later in life and travel more? I mean I did the whole "big city/big salary" thing briefly. It was stressful, and I had less discretionary income than I do now with a lower salary in a much cheaper city.
People will be like "but the culture!" How often are people really going to the opera or to museums or to shows? Generally just on the weekends for most, right? Well then why not live and work in Buffalo on a Toronto remote worker salary and then visit the high culture of Toronto on the weekends? What am I missing?
If you want to access Toronto within an hour or two but not live there, there are still many places you can move to while still staying in Ontario, which avoids the border hassles which have become way more unpredictable over the past 20 years or so.
I don't see growth in Canada affecting demographics in US border regions through a spillover effect at all.
There are different factors and most importantly different government systems and policies that make the two sides of the border fairly siloed in this respect.
Now I can see US border areas doing better economically as a spin-off from the Canadian side of the border's prosperity. It's already happened to some degree in a few places, and may indeed pick up as things get back to normal in the coming years, and the border hopefully loosens up.
This in turn could lead to population growth in Buffalo, Plattsburgh or even Bellingham, Wash.
But those new residents won't come from Canada. They'll come from other parts of the US or the US' own immigration programs.
I'd be a huge fan of that happening, but Toronto is just far enough away to be relatively off the radar for most Buffalonians. And as far as I can tell, the average Torontonian doesn't devote any thought to Buffalo unless the Leafs are in town. Cross-border tourism is somewhat common in non-Covid times, as plenty of Canadians travel to WNY for shopping among other reasons, but I'd suspect that the vast majority of those who do so are from places like St. Catherine's, Thorold, and Niagara Falls ON--the small(ish) cities that are closest to the border. The pandemic has obviously imposed further separation between the two countries, though this will ultimately prove temporary. But I think any effort at integration into a unified, coherent cross-border region would be starting almost at ground zero. There are a couple prominent Canadian developers who've made slight inroads into the Buffalo market, but even that is less common than you might imagine from afar (the outsider who in recent years has bought up seemingly half the city is a developed based out of the DC area). Hell, Buffalo can't even figure out how to properly benefit from proximity to the Falls. I'd argue that should be the more pressing issue, to promote greater symbiosis between Buffalo and NF (both troubled cities in their own right, to be sure). Toronto is to some (great?) extent underappreciated by the average American, and so any effort on Buffalo's part to promote itself as a gateway to TO would likely not yield the economic return that NF-Buffalo cross-promotion would. I definitely think Buffalo would benefit culturally from greater intermingling with the TO region, as Buffalo is at present too insular/provincial IMO.
Some good points here. I think the only thing is that Buffalo is at least seeing some development and population growth on its own or at least in parts of the city, but Niagara Falls is still stalling quite a bit. There has been some things here and there in terms of development, but I think once that city starts seeing the development you would think it would get, then I think it would be a key piece to connecting the Buffalo area with the Golden Horseshoe.
I'm in BC, 15 km from the US border. There is little-to-no interest on either side for greater integration (beyond it being faster to cross the border) than what currently exists. Even the Cascadian independence movement is nothing more than a meme.
It is much, much harder to emigrate to either country than most people think it is. US salaries are much better than Canadian ones, both in absolute and relative values, so there really would be no spillover effect from Canadian prosperity. So too are goods much cheaper in the US - being the center of a global empire has its perks. Since Canada doesn't have the leverage internationally that the US does, there isn't really any way of changing this - after all, there's a reason Canada fights its trade wars with raw materials.
Americans mostly love being American and Canadians mostly love being Canadian, and barring big changes in the world, so will it remain.
^ This. Why live in Toronto and struggle to buy a $750,000 "modest" home (like I have seen on many episodes of "Love it or List It") when you can move to Rochester, NY or Buffalo, NY, earn slightly less money, and have a MUCH, MUCH lower cost-of-living?
I guess I don't understand why cheap North American cities aren't doing better now with the explosion of remote work options. If I could earn $120,000/year living and working in DC and was offered the opportunity to work remotely then why not move somewhere with a MUCH lower cost-of-living and invest the savings so I could retire potentially 5-10 years sooner later in life and travel more? I mean I did the whole "big city/big salary" thing briefly. It was stressful, and I had less discretionary income than I do now with a lower salary in a much cheaper city.
People will be like "but the culture!" How often are people really going to the opera or to museums or to shows? Generally just on the weekends for most, right? Well then why not live and work in Buffalo on a Toronto remote worker salary and then visit the high culture of Toronto on the weekends? What am I missing?
You are not missing anything. People are fleeing Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver right now and all 3 would be basically stagnating or shrinking without immigration but obviously most immigrants go to those 3 cities.
Montreal is still quite affordable in terms of real estate but Toronto is very expensive and Vancouver is science fiction territory. People are leaving for cheaper and less stressful centres. Vancouverites are moving to Vancouver Island and the Okanagan Valley. Torontonians to Kitchener, London, Barrie, Windsor, and Niagara.
There has been a new phenomenon recently in Canada..........people moving to Atlantic Canada and especially Nova Scotia and it's capitol Halifax. It is vastly more affordable, the Maritimes have a well deserved reputation of being relaxed and friendly, there are many beautiful towns and gorgeous scenery, and Halifax is a major regional centre, a capitol city, and a university town as well as being one of the prettiest little city you will ever see.
The Maritimes were always a place to move from and have always had the nation's slowest population growth for nearly a century but Nova Scotia is now one of the fastest growing provinces in the country and Halifax one of the fastest Metros. The people moving to the Maritimes {including NB & PEI} tend, unlike the big 3 cities, are Canadians looking for a nicer and more affordable way of life.
^ This. Why live in Toronto and struggle to buy a $750,000 "modest" home (like I have seen on many episodes of "Love it or List It") when you can move to Rochester, NY or Buffalo, NY, earn slightly less money, and have a MUCH, MUCH lower cost-of-living?
I guess I don't understand why cheap North American cities aren't doing better now .... < snip> ......
People will be like "but the culture!" How often are people really going to the opera or to museums or to shows? Generally just on the weekends for most, right? Well then why not live and work in Buffalo on a Toronto remote worker salary and then visit the high culture of Toronto on the weekends? What am I missing?
I think what you're missing is that you're focusing too much on American money, cheap cities and lower cost of living as being the be-all-to-end-all, but it isn't the be-all-to-end-all in Canada. You also aren't recognizing that living in Toronto means living in Canada and being Canadian, which is very desirable ...... it is not the same as living in USA and being American, which is not a desirable thing to Canadians.
There are a lot of similarities between the two countries and USA is an interesting country to visit and do trade and business with and spend money there. But there are far more differences than similarities between the two countries and the vast majority of Canadians, regardless of what part of Canada they live in, would not ever entertain the thought of living in USA and becoming Americans. It would be like selling a big piece of their souls to give up so much of their Canadian quality of life in favour of American cheap quantity and I think that's something that most Americans simply can't relate to because they don't recognize the difference.
I think what you're missing is that you're focusing too much on American money, cheap cities and lower cost of living as being the be-all-to-end-all, but it isn't the be-all-to-end-all in Canada. You also aren't recognizing that living in Toronto means living in Canada and being Canadian, which is very desirable ...... it is not the same as living in USA and being American, which is not a desirable thing to Canadians.
There are a lot of similarities between the two countries and USA is an interesting country to visit and do trade and business with and spend money there. But there are far more differences than similarities between the two countries and the vast majority of Canadians, regardless of what part of Canada they live in, would not ever entertain the thought of living in USA and becoming Americans. It would be like selling a big piece of their souls to give up so much of their Canadian quality of life in favour of American cheap quantity and I think that's something that most Americans simply can't relate to because they don't recognize the difference.
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I mean the main thing is Canadians don’t have work authorization in the United States.
A company is St Catherine’s or Niagara Falls can’t buy a nice new bigger space in Tonawanda NY without having to replace its entire workforce. And most of the growth from Immigration. Immigrants don’t exactly choose between the United States and Canada, Canada is just easier to get into as a skilled immigrant than the United States.
Most of these restrictions are actually on the account of Canada not wanting businesses to go to the United States. Canada has a ton of protectionist policies in regards to the United States.
................. but it isn't the be-all-to-end-all in Canada. You also aren't recognizing that living in Toronto means living in Canada and being Canadian, which is very desirable ...... it is not the same as living in USA and being American, which is not a desirable thing to Canadians.
There are a lot of similarities between the two countries and USA is an interesting country to visit and do trade and business with and spend money there. But there are far more differences than similarities between the two countries and the vast majority of Canadians, regardless of what part of Canada they live in, would not ever entertain the thought of living in USA and becoming Americans. It would be like selling a big piece of their souls to give up so much of their Canadian quality of life in favour of American cheap quantity and I think that's something that most Americans simply can't relate to because they don't recognize the difference.
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Your right.
I immigrated to Canada in my twenties....and LEFT ASAP!!!
Canadians are a "very self-satisfied" people.
Not very curious, not rebellious, and very conforming to societial norms. Myself, and the other immigrants from all over the world, quite frankly, made fun of this aspect of Canadian culture.
Watch the movie....Stepford Wives. Yeah, then make a movie about a country that is based on the movie. Oh, that would be Canada.
It was explained to me by a Canadian as a "CORPORATE" culture, based on the Hudson Bay Company!!! Don't be too curious, don't rebell, wear a tie and white shirt to work, etc. etc. Be polite to your fellow workers and don't say anything to make them mad!!
With all that Canada is a good country. In this world there are very few good countries.
It is scary how "good" the country considers itself. That concept can get out of hand as many other countries have learned.
But given its low population, the world is probably safe.
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