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4 of the 5 cities are roughly equivalent in percentage of total households >75k (15.5 to 15.8%) and >200k (1 to 1.3%), with Cleveland lagging significantly behind the others at 10.9 and 0.5%.
Source: 2011 and 2020 5-Year Census ACS data.
Per the ACS data, each city showed a decrease in the number of Black households between 2010 and 2020. So, even with a decreasing population all cities showed an increase in households over 75k, but Cleveland appears to be losing its wealthiest Black residents.
Now to make things more jumbled, the change in total Black households (all incomes) from ACS data appears to be VERY different from the percent change in actual Black population measured in the 2010 and 2020 actual counts.
All Black Households
Detroit - 211,813 (2010) / 211,614 (2020) / -199 (-0.1%) [-15.9% population 2020 Census]
St. Louis - 60,866 (2010) / 60,197 (2020) / -669 (-1.1%) [-17.4% population 2020 Census]
Cleveland - 87,744 (2010) / 83,823 (2020) / -3,921 (-4.5%) [-14.9% population 2020 Census]
Pittsburgh - 32,381 (2010) / 30,240 (2020) / -2,141 (-6.6%) [-13.4% population 2020 Census]
Buffalo - 40,754 (2010) / 39,576 (2020) / -1,178 (-2.9%) [+1.8% population 2020 Census]
So, we will have to await the next round of ACS data that uses actual 2020 data in its calculations to get a better handle on wealth and income, although the pandemic impacts followed by the current hiring spree and inflation will make it very difficult to compare with older data.
It's not a fair comparison, especially when wealth has been stolen from non-immigrant blacks. But it makes the willfully ignorant feel better about their group behavior.
I think it’s important to state West Indians were enslaved and enslaved longer than us and then they we exploited impoverished colonies for another 150 years.
Africans are more different in that respect and their outcomes here show it.
I think you are highlighting a greater problem within the Black community in America that stems from the last 400 years of oppression we have experienced as Black people in America. Why is position, class, success, and wealth in the Black community looked upon as a negative thing? Do we not deserve nice things? Should we apologize for success? Shouldn't we be trying to uplift other Black households into this class versus framing it as a negative thing?
You represent the ideal they're discussing in this video below saying things like "It’s way way too bougie for me" which is honestly a symptom of the Black experience in America:
I think statements like this are pretty much an over generalization of the Black community and the Black experience in America. I don't think the average Black American looks down on position, class, success and wealth. There's a few people who have those sentiments for sure but generally NO. I think the average Black American would love to be successful and acquire wealth. Who wouldn't? I think sometimes there's a disconnect between the very AFFLUENT class of Black people compared to the everyday average Black American. But that literally happens in every community not just Black people.
You don't think other communities look at the 1% with some kind of disdain? I can assure you they do. Some Black people have a bad habit of over generalizations due to some Whites generalizing us dating back to slavery. Also there's a difference between people being successful and in higher position of power and those who literally mimic and idol worship White Euro centric upper class society. I know plenty of down to earth middle class and even affluent Black folks that most people rich or poor would love to be around.
I grew up in a middle class family and so did my Wife. Most of my peers are either middle class or blue collar families who are doing pretty good and I can assure you we're not receiving jealous stares from the rest of the "BLACKS". Not saying attitudes like that what you describe don't exist but I think it's overstated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
From what I have seen no. If that is what they wanted, wouldn't they "only" choose to live overwhelmingly in areas where they are the majority? When I say majority, I mean 80%-100% Black. Wouldn't they choose to live in Black areas regardless of the crime and schools because they hold the fact that the community is Black higher than everything else? That is whether they are rich, poor, or in-between? I already posted census data for Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta and middle-class Black households were clearly not moving to the Black areas of those cities like they were in DC. You even highlighted the crime and schools East of the River, and yet, the Black middle-class is flocking to those neighborhoods.
That was the only point I was making, and it was based on census data, not my opinion.
Re-read this please. Yeah forget how bad the crime is and how sh*tty the schools are. Focus on the greater good of staying in a 80% to 100% Black community just because it's OVERWHEMINGLY BLACK. See in Houston and Atlanta I have the option of raising my children in a community that has a significant amount of Black people and send her to a great school where Black people are the predominant society. Case and point, I enrolled my child in one of the best charter schools in the state where it's predominately Black (Black Americans and largely Continental Africans) followed by a big Asian demographic, than Hispanic and Whites being the smallest demographic in the school. This school specializes in stem programs. I don't know if you're aware but most high paying jobs in this country revolve around things kids learn with stem programs. I have a nephew who goes to the same charter school in the 11th grade who legitimately has a chance to be accepted into an ivy league school due to his outstanding grades and skills involved in technology. Could he have had that chance at a school in a predominately Black school in Northwest Houston? Maybe, but the reality is it's much more common for kids in the right environment to prosper compared to those in the opposite environment.
Now where I live Black people are the 2nd biggest demographic compared to Hispanics. It's a very diverse area. Would I prefer to live in a 80% to a 100% Black community? Yeah if the schools were good and the crime was low. But than how ass backwards would that be for me and my family? I'm not giving up my "blackness" just because I choose an area that actually has multiple grocery stores and non-industrial sites that are environmental hazards to a communities overall health. You kind of contradict yourself when you make this point. You feel some way about Black people who look down on the upper middle class Black family yet when one decides to move somewhere to provide a better outcome for their family than they're somehow abandoning and apologizing their Blackness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
I think it’s important to state West Indians were enslaved and enslaved longer than us and then they we exploited impoverished colonies for another 150 years.
Africans are more different in that respect and their outcomes here show it.
Ehh, a lot of those same enslaved Africans in the West Indies were eventually shipped to the States so I don't know if that's the proper way of looking at history like that. We're all a product of the Trans Atlantic Slave trade and many were colonized by the same Europeans so the concept of "them" being enslaved longer than us isn't a completely accurate statement. Or historical context needs to be added to that. Also yeah while the West was exploiting these former colonies many decades after their independence, African "Americans" was going through their own form of exploitation and domestic terrorism shortly after the reconstruction era all the way to the civil rights era. All these things are connected in the diaspora btw.
some were shipped to the us but most died in a short period of years (maybe 7/8) after their arrival in the New World due to the brutality of slavery down there’s which meant there really was no basis in which to form a culture. There are degrees to this and while it’s not a parallel to the US there are more similarities than with contienteal Africans just by virtue of of being in the new world and having lost a higher of ones original culture. The colonization part is maybe more similar to the African experience. However while Caribbean immigrants perform better than US Blacks they do worse than most African groups and much worse than non black/non Latino groups. Growing up in an area with both there was a big divide between US and Caribbean black and Africans who generally didn’t live in the inner city (except Cape Verdeans and now Somalis) and African who dominated prep schools and blacks in the wealthier suburbs.
Now where I live Black people are the 2nd biggest demographic compared to Hispanics. It's a very diverse area. Would I prefer to live in a 80% to a 100% Black community? Yeah if the schools were good and the crime was low. But than how ass backwards would that be for me and my family? I'm not giving up my "blackness" just because I choose an area that actually has multiple grocery stores and non-industrial sites that are environmental hazards to a communities overall health. You kind of contradict yourself when you make this point. You feel some way about Black people who look down on the upper middle class Black family yet when one decides to move somewhere to provide a better outcome for their family than they're somehow abandoning and apologizing their Blackness.
I think youve highlighted a very interesting point.
What I think it boils down to, regardless of which race you are, is how strong a persons racial or ethnic identity is. As an outsider looking in, it seems almost unfathomable that a person would select a neighborhood with bad schools and high crime just to be in a neighborhood that is 80-100% their race assuming they could afford better. To seek out those places for the sole purpose of being in a community that is all one race has to imply an exceptional racial identity to the point where it would have to guide every decision a person would make.
This is hardly just a black phenomenon though. There are people in my community that feel this way. My family still doesnt understand why I dont drop everything and go live in the Western Suburbs of Detroit because thats where the bulk of my community lives.
Hell, white people have been doing this for years too but it just goes under the name "white flight". Outside of extremes, white people dont have as strong of a racial identity because they dont have to. They have most of the wealth and control most things so they can pretty well have their pick of the lot.
I get that no one wants to be the token no matter what race they are. What I do have a harder time understanding is why someone would go live in a subpar place, relative to what they could afford, for the sole purpose of being in a place that is over 80% their race.
I think it’s important to state West Indians were enslaved and enslaved longer than us and then they we exploited impoverished colonies for another 150 years.
Africans are more different in that respect and their outcomes here show it.
Absolutely. Our culture dealt moreso with 300+ of slavery specof9cally.
I think statements like this are pretty much an over generalization of the Black community and the Black experience in America. I don't think the average Black American looks down on position, class, success and wealth. There's a few people who have those sentiments for sure but generally NO. I think the average Black American would love to be successful and acquire wealth. Who wouldn't? I think sometimes there's a disconnect between the very AFFLUENT class of Black people compared to the everyday average Black American. But that literally happens in every community not just Black people.
You don't think other communities look at the 1% with some kind of disdain? I can assure you they do. Some Black people have a bad habit of over generalizations due to some Whites generalizing us dating back to slavery. Also there's a difference between people being successful and in higher position of power and those who literally mimic and idol worship White Euro centric upper class society. I know plenty of down to earth middle class and even affluent Black folks that most people rich or poor would love to be around.
I grew up in a middle class family and so did my Wife. Most of my peers are either middle class or blue collar families who are doing pretty good and I can assure you we're not receiving jealous stares from the rest of the "BLACKS". Not saying attitudes like that what you describe don't exist but I think it's overstated.
Did you watch the documentary? The people in the documentary are talking about Black people who call them bougie and I think we both can agree it stems from the class differences created by slavery. House slaves versus field slaves. Even amongst free Blacks, they used to call them the uppity negro which is problematic to begin with because the implication is Black people aren't supposed to be refined with class. We aren't having a discussion about the 1%, we're talking about regular Black middle-class families whose children are told they sound "white" because they use proper grammar and annunciate their words.
I also grew up middle-class. Both my parents have degrees, and my mother has a masters from the University of Chicago. They both worked for IBM when I was younger. In DC, being called bougie is a "thing" and I think it stems from DC having a lot of old money. This region has been the American Black capital of education and wealth for generations which probably plays a role in the sentiment many Black families below the middle-class share. Seeing Black middle-class families around is nothing new for DC and if you watch the documentary, a few people say they didn't hear the term "bougie" until they came to DC. I'm sure it is more prevalent in DC because of the history of the Black population in DC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr
Re-read this please. Yeah forget how bad the crime is and how sh*tty the schools are. Focus on the greater good of staying in a 80% to 100% Black community just because it's OVERWHEMINGLY BLACK. See in Houston and Atlanta I have the option of raising my children in a community that has a significant amount of Black people and send her to a great school where Black people are the predominant society. Case and point, I enrolled my child in one of the best charter schools in the state where it's predominately Black (Black Americans and largely Continental Africans) followed by a big Asian demographic, than Hispanic and Whites being the smallest demographic in the school. This school specializes in stem programs. I don't know if you're aware but most high paying jobs in this country revolve around things kids learn with stem programs. I have a nephew who goes to the same charter school in the 11th grade who legitimately has a chance to be accepted into an ivy league school due to his outstanding grades and skills involved in technology. Could he have had that chance at a school in a predominately Black school in Northwest Houston? Maybe, but the reality is it's much more common for kids in the right environment to prosper compared to those in the opposite environment.
Black families living EOTR in DC put their children in charter school too. I don't know a single-family living EOTR with children in a school located EOTR. In DC, your kids can go to school anywhere in the city. We have some of the top public school in America in DC. We also have some amazing charter schools. One of my best friends living EOTR has a son at School without Walls here in DC. I have known people who put their children at Banneker High School here in DC which is ranked in the top 100 schools in AMERICA. The school options in DC are endless and it doesn't matter where you live.
The schools aren't great in Prince George's County or DC overall, however, Black middle-class families still choose to live in areas where their local schools aren't great because they aren't obligated to put their children in the local schools. I don't know why you believe the local schools EOTR is where people living EOTR put their children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlionjr
Now where I live Black people are the 2nd biggest demographic compared to Hispanics. It's a very diverse area. Would I prefer to live in a 80% to a 100% Black community? Yeah if the schools were good and the crime was low. But than how ass backwards would that be for me and my family? I'm not giving up my "blackness" just because I choose an area that actually has multiple grocery stores and non-industrial sites that are environmental hazards to a communities overall health. You kind of contradict yourself when you make this point. You feel some way about Black people who look down on the upper middle class Black family yet when one decides to move somewhere to provide a better outcome for their family than they're somehow abandoning and apologizing their Blackness.
You're actually bringing up an issue with schools in Black neighborhoods in America. The biggest issue Black schools in America have experienced is a lack of support from Black middle-class families moving into the neighborhood. If Black families would put their children in the local schools, the school's performance would rise. In formerly predominantly Black Capitol Hill located in DC, White families moving into the neighborhood took over the PTA and put their children in the elementary schools. Those schools skyrocketed over the years because the families refused to not take ownership of their local schools. If Black families did the same as a collective, predominantly Black schools would see the same improvements. We really struggle as a people in so many areas and that is one of the biggest ones. We don't know our own strength.
As for environmental hazards, that is because you live in Houston which is the most backwards city in America because it is the only city in America without zoning. We don't have issues with environmental hazards in DC. We don't have factories or any other hazards. DC is a leader in environmental sustainability in America.
My last point is about your "assumption" that I feel a way toward people that choose to live in areas that aren't predominately Black or Black people that look down on the middle-class. I personally don't care either way, I was bringing up an issue in the Black community amongst social classes. It's an academic discussion, not a personal one. People can and should live where they choose. My community is not better or worse because it is Black, and your diverse community is not better or worse because it isn't 90% Black. That is the beauty of America in 2022, we can live where we choose. The difference is Black middle-class households have the money to live anywhere in the DC region but choose to live in areas that are 80%-100% Black in the DC metro area. That is what makes DC different, and your explanation proves the point I have been making.
For future reference, I don't talk about personal things on here. It will always be rooted in some kind of fact you can either search or research. Something that has been written about or studied. It will not be my personal beliefs. I enjoy talking about topics related to Black culture and Black people overall.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 07-14-2022 at 10:03 AM..
I think youve highlighted a very interesting point.
What I think it boils down to, regardless of which race you are, is how strong a persons racial or ethnic identity is. As an outsider looking in, it seems almost unfathomable that a person would select a neighborhood with bad schools and high crime just to be in a neighborhood that is 80-100% their race assuming they could afford better. To seek out those places for the sole purpose of being in a community that is all one race has to imply an exceptional racial identity to the point where it would have to guide every decision a person would make.
This is hardly just a black phenomenon though. There are people in my community that feel this way. My family still doesnt understand why I dont drop everything and go live in the Western Suburbs of Detroit because thats where the bulk of my community lives.
Hell, white people have been doing this for years too but it just goes under the name "white flight". Outside of extremes, white people dont have as strong of a racial identity because they dont have to. They have most of the wealth and control most things so they can pretty well have their pick of the lot.
I get that no one wants to be the token no matter what race they are. What I do have a harder time understanding is why someone would go live in a subpar place, relative to what they could afford, for the sole purpose of being in a place that is over 80% their race.
The reality is most black people dont feel this way.
"Many studies investigate racial and ethnic residential preferences, with most of them using a show card method in which respondents evaluate hypothetical neighborhoods that show varying degrees of racial and ethnic diversity (e.g., see Farley et al. 1994, 1978). This research demonstrates that an individual’s race is an important factor in shaping neighborhood preferences. Whites tend to favor predominantly white neighborhoods, while blacks prefer integrated neighborhoods (i.e., a 50 % white, 50 % black neighborhood) and see ‘all white’ but also ‘all black’ neighborhoods as least desirable (Bobo and Hutchings 1996; Clark 1991; Farley et al. 1994; Krysan and Farley 2002). "
"Finally, Adelman (2005) demonstrated that preferences do not perfectly correspond with actual neighborhoods. His study in Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, and Los Angeles showed that middle-class blacks who prefer to live in a racially integrated neighborhood live on average in neighborhoods that are 60 % black and 30 % white, while middle-class whites who prefer racially integrated neighborhoods reside in predominantly white neighborhoods (i.e., on average 85 % white)."
"Many studies investigate racial and ethnic residential preferences, with most of them using a show card method in which respondents evaluate hypothetical neighborhoods that show varying degrees of racial and ethnic diversity (e.g., see Farley et al. 1994, 1978). This research demonstrates that an individual’s race is an important factor in shaping neighborhood preferences. Whites tend to favor predominantly white neighborhoods, while blacks prefer integrated neighborhoods (i.e., a 50 % white, 50 % black neighborhood) and see ‘all white’ but also ‘all black’ neighborhoods as least desirable (Bobo and Hutchings 1996; Clark 1991; Farley et al. 1994; Krysan and Farley 2002). "
"Finally, Adelman (2005) demonstrated that preferences do not perfectly correspond with actual neighborhoods. His study in Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, and Los Angeles showed that middle-class blacks who prefer to live in a racially integrated neighborhood live on average in neighborhoods that are 60 % black and 30 % white, while middle-class whites who prefer racially integrated neighborhoods reside in predominantly white neighborhoods (i.e., on average 85 % white)."
Yeah, I figured that was probably the case. I suppose I was just talking about those for whom their racial identity makes it not so.
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