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I think youve highlighted a very interesting point.
What I think it boils down to, regardless of which race you are, is how strong a persons racial or ethnic identity is. As an outsider looking in, it seems almost unfathomable that a person would select a neighborhood with bad schools and high crime just to be in a neighborhood that is 80-100% their race assuming they could afford better. To seek out those places for the sole purpose of being in a community that is all one race has to imply an exceptional racial identity to the point where it would have to guide every decision a person would make.
This is hardly just a black phenomenon though. There are people in my community that feel this way. My family still doesnt understand why I dont drop everything and go live in the Western Suburbs of Detroit because thats where the bulk of my community lives.
Hell, white people have been doing this for years too but it just goes under the name "white flight". Outside of extremes, white people dont have as strong of a racial identity because they dont have to. They have most of the wealth and control most things so they can pretty well have their pick of the lot.
I get that no one wants to be the token no matter what race they are. What I do have a harder time understanding is why someone would go live in a subpar place, relative to what they could afford, for the sole purpose of being in a place that is over 80% their race.
I think this has more to do with culture and familiarity. Black people living around other Black people whether rich or poor have way more in common than they would with White people. We probably have the same cookouts, family reunions, listen to the same music, eat the same food, go to the same church, dress the same way. We can play our music loud during a party till late at night without the threat of some neighbor calling the police which is prevalent in White neighborhoods. The list of similarities would be endless. The American Black culture is unique just like the Irish, Italian, Indian, or Chinese cultures are unique.
In 2022, we also feel safer amongst our own because of the racial issues surrounding the police and other problems in mixed neighborhoods. Worrying about your child because he might be "walking while being black" in his own neighborhood is not something we have to think about in Black neighborhoods. Also, the sense of community is different. I am a member of my civic association in my neighborhood and chair a board for it and the issues I would encounter if my neighborhood was White are nonexistent because the entire civic association looks like me. Ward 7, where I live, has the most active and powerful civic associations in DC which gives Ward 7 a lot of political power in the city. Because the ward is 91% Black, we can speak up for Black issues because those issues impact almost everyone in the ward. There are tons of reasons people like living in neighborhoods where the people look like them, but I think the most important ones are culture and familiarity.
For the DC area specifically, I think the massive size of the Black middle-class plays a role in the segregation. DC is kind of an outlier in America because the Black middle-class is so much larger than other cities and has been for generations. There isn't another place in America where you can live in a place with almost all Black people for miles upon miles and everyone makes well over $100,000. The outer beltway in Prince George's County has like 7 of the 10 richest Black communities in America. It's different here.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 07-14-2022 at 10:47 AM..
"Many studies investigate racial and ethnic residential preferences, with most of them using a show card method in which respondents evaluate hypothetical neighborhoods that show varying degrees of racial and ethnic diversity (e.g., see Farley et al. 1994, 1978). This research demonstrates that an individual’s race is an important factor in shaping neighborhood preferences. Whites tend to favor predominantly white neighborhoods, while blacks prefer integrated neighborhoods (i.e., a 50 % white, 50 % black neighborhood) and see ‘all white’ but also ‘all black’ neighborhoods as least desirable (Bobo and Hutchings 1996; Clark 1991; Farley et al. 1994; Krysan and Farley 2002). "
"Finally, Adelman (2005) demonstrated that preferences do not perfectly correspond with actual neighborhoods. His study in Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, and Los Angeles showed that middle-class blacks who prefer to live in a racially integrated neighborhood live on average in neighborhoods that are 60 % black and 30 % white, while middle-class whites who prefer racially integrated neighborhoods reside in predominantly white neighborhoods (i.e., on average 85 % white)."
Total Black Households Making Over $75,000 per year in DC Metro Area:
Black Households Living in East of the River DC/PG County
$75,000 to $99,999 = 47% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$100,000 to $124,999 = 47% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$125,000 to $149,999 = 47% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$150,000 to $199,999 = 45% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$200,000 or more = 42% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Total Households Making Over $75K = 46% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Black Households Living in DC Proper/PG County/Charles County
$75,000 to $99,999 = 62% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$100,000 to $124,999 = 61% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$125,000 to $149,999 = 61% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$150,000 to $199,999 = 60% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$200,000 or more = 57% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Total Households Making Over $75K = 60% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Now, once you add in Montgomery County which also has Black middle-class neighborhoods that are almost exclusively Black, these numbers are staggering:
Black Households Living in DC Proper/PG County/Charles County/Montgomery County
$75,000 to $99,999 = 74% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$100,000 to $124,999 = 73% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$125,000 to $149,999 = 73% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$150,000 to $199,999 = 70% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$200,000 or more = 69% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Total Households Making Over $75K = 72% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
I think statements like this are pretty much an over generalization of the Black community and the Black experience in America. I don't think the average Black American looks down on position, class, success and wealth. There's a few people who have those sentiments for sure but generally NO. I think the average Black American would love to be successful and acquire wealth. Who wouldn't? I think sometimes there's a disconnect between the very AFFLUENT class of Black people compared to the everyday average Black American. But that literally happens in every community not just Black people.
You don't think other communities look at the 1% with some kind of disdain? I can assure you they do. Some Black people have a bad habit of over generalizations due to some Whites generalizing us dating back to slavery. Also there's a difference between people being successful and in higher position of power and those who literally mimic and idol worship White Euro centric upper class society. I know plenty of down to earth middle class and even affluent Black folks that most people rich or poor would love to be around.
I grew up in a middle class family and so did my Wife. Most of my peers are either middle class or blue collar families who are doing pretty good and I can assure you we're not receiving jealous stares from the rest of the "BLACKS". Not saying attitudes like that what you describe don't exist but I think it's overstated.
Re-read this please. Yeah forget how bad the crime is and how sh*tty the schools are. Focus on the greater good of staying in a 80% to 100% Black community just because it's OVERWHEMINGLY BLACK. See in Houston and Atlanta I have the option of raising my children in a community that has a significant amount of Black people and send her to a great school where Black people are the predominant society. Case and point, I enrolled my child in one of the best charter schools in the state where it's predominately Black (Black Americans and largely Continental Africans) followed by a big Asian demographic, than Hispanic and Whites being the smallest demographic in the school. This school specializes in stem programs. I don't know if you're aware but most high paying jobs in this country revolve around things kids learn with stem programs. I have a nephew who goes to the same charter school in the 11th grade who legitimately has a chance to be accepted into an ivy league school due to his outstanding grades and skills involved in technology. Could he have had that chance at a school in a predominately Black school in Northwest Houston? Maybe, but the reality is it's much more common for kids in the right environment to prosper compared to those in the opposite environment.
Now where I live Black people are the 2nd biggest demographic compared to Hispanics. It's a very diverse area. Would I prefer to live in a 80% to a 100% Black community? Yeah if the schools were good and the crime was low. But than how ass backwards would that be for me and my family? I'm not giving up my "blackness" just because I choose an area that actually has multiple grocery stores and non-industrial sites that are environmental hazards to a communities overall health. You kind of contradict yourself when you make this point. You feel some way about Black people who look down on the upper middle class Black family yet when one decides to move somewhere to provide a better outcome for their family than they're somehow abandoning and apologizing their Blackness.
Ehh, a lot of those same enslaved Africans in the West Indies were eventually shipped to the States so I don't know if that's the proper way of looking at history like that. We're all a product of the Trans Atlantic Slave trade and many were colonized by the same Europeans so the concept of "them" being enslaved longer than us isn't a completely accurate statement. Or historical context needs to be added to that. Also yeah while the West was exploiting these former colonies many decades after their independence, African "Americans" was going through their own form of exploitation and domestic terrorism shortly after the reconstruction era all the way to the civil rights era. All these things are connected in the diaspora btw.
I just want to comment on a little thing. You said do most groups see the 1% as evil. I personally have run into fairly few Indian Americans who denigrate wealthy. Now you could argue that’s because the majority of Indian immigrants here are the top 1-30% of their society. But I’ve generally found a really positive view of wealth and wealthy people amongst them and I think that plays into them becoming the wealthiest group in America by median income. Aspirational desires to be wealthy and act like your wealthy might play a role on becoming wealthy.
I just want to comment on a little thing. You said do most groups see the 1% as evil. I personally have run into fairly few Indian Americans who denigrate wealthy. Now you could argue that’s because the majority of Indian immigrants here are the top 1-30% of their society. But I’ve generally found a really positive view of wealth and wealthy people amongst them and I think that plays into them becoming the wealthiest group in America by median income. Aspirational desires to be wealthy and act like your wealthy might play a role on becoming wealthy.
I agree with this, and we must also realize that Black people are different depending on where you live in America. Look at these maps below:
On a side note, the two rivers (Potomac River and Anacostia River) in DC seem to be a very unique geographical trait compared to the other metro areas across America which may provide a prediction for the Black areas of the DC area remaining so into the future.
When we talk about anchors for the Black community in the form of downtown business and entertainment districts and Black middle-class neighborhoods, the DC map shows the insular nature of the future of the Black community for the DC area with EOTR Ward 7 and Ward 8 being the "Black downtown" for PG County and Charles County as the multiple downtown's EOTR are built out. The need to cross the river into the urban core of DC will be greatly diminished in the future for all Black people.
When we have our own restaurants, our own grocery stores and neighborhood serving retail, and our own parks and recreational options in our own neighborhoods, we don't need to travel to other neighborhoods where people live that don't look like us to experience these things.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 07-14-2022 at 12:04 PM..
Total Black Households Making Over $75,000 per year in DC Metro Area:
Black Households Living in East of the River DC/PG County
$75,000 to $99,999 = 47% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$100,000 to $124,999 = 47% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$125,000 to $149,999 = 47% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$150,000 to $199,999 = 45% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$200,000 or more = 42% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Total Households Making Over $75K = 46% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Black Households Living in DC Proper/PG County/Charles County
$75,000 to $99,999 = 62% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$100,000 to $124,999 = 61% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$125,000 to $149,999 = 61% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$150,000 to $199,999 = 60% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$200,000 or more = 57% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Total Households Making Over $75K = 60% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Now, once you add in Montgomery County which also has Black middle-class neighborhoods that are almost exclusively Black, these numbers are staggering:
Black Households Living in DC Proper/PG County/Charles County/Montgomery County
$75,000 to $99,999 = 74% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$100,000 to $124,999 = 73% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$125,000 to $149,999 = 73% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$150,000 to $199,999 = 70% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
$200,000 or more = 69% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
Total Households Making Over $75K = 72% of Black Households in DC Metro Area
If I'm reading this right, the DC metro area is at 52.1% of black households making over $75,000. I just used the last column, which is for the metro area.
I just want to comment on a little thing. You said do most groups see the 1% as evil. I personally have run into fairly few Indian Americans who denigrate wealthy. Now you could argue that’s because the majority of Indian immigrants here are the top 1-30% of their society. But I’ve generally found a really positive view of wealth and wealthy people amongst them and I think that plays into them becoming the wealthiest group in America by median income. Aspirational desires to be wealthy and act like your wealthy might play a role on becoming wealthy.
India models itself after the most pro-capitalist elements of the United States. not surprised Indian immigrants feel that way.
I did an analysis of some of the most talked about cities on this thread. The data is household, not individual. I tried to account for inflation and cost of living.
$60,000 in 2010 dollars is roughly the same as $73,000 in 2020 dollars. That will be my basis for the minimum of what constitutes Middle Class. So I will base the differences of $75,000 in 2020 from $60,000 in 2010. This is a harsh way to judge because youre comparing 6 categories from 2010 to 5 categories from 2020, but if we want to adjust this for inflation, this is the way to go.
Middle/Upper Middle/Upper Class Black Household Growth between 2010-2020 by City Proper
New York City: 13,389
Dallas: 5,023
Fort Worth: 4,375
Charlotte: 4,294
Atlanta: 4,268
Nashville: 3,973
Raleigh: 3,073
Boston: 3,055
Philadelphia: 2,548
Houston: 1,745
Baltimore: 984
Washington DC: 251
St. Louis: -60
Los Angeles: -172
San Francisco: -198
Memphis: -399
Las Vegas: -1,001
Chicago: -6,682
Detroit: -11,547
It has to be stressed the above numbers include foreign born Africans which is why NYC and Boston's numbers are so high.
But cost of living is a factor. What it means to have $75,000 in Houston is completely different than DC, Boston, and NYC. That amount is barely middle class in those other cities. Currently $67,000 is the median household income. I will use Fort Worth is a baseline with the income of $67,000 because its cost of living is very close to the national average. Then I will take the amount in the cities listed to compute what the middle class income would be. Below are the incomes needed in other cities for the $67,000 in Fort Worth.
San Francisco: $190,260
New York City: $130,691
Los Angeles: $121,824
Boston: $113,394
Washington DC: $108,586
Las Vegas: $74,993
Chicago: $73,556
Atlanta: $72,689
Nashville: $69,939
Raleigh: $69,310
Philadelphia: $69,185
Dallas: $68,716
Charlotte: $66,625
Houston: $64,556
Baltimore: $60,664
Detroit: $58,945
St. Louis: $55,386
Memphis: $52,638
The way I will recalculate is to compare the middle class values (the ones above) and Ill see what the dollar amounts were in 2010. Then I can calculate how increase in households above those values.
Middle/Upper Middle/Upper Class Black Household Growth between 2010-2020 by City Proper with Inflation and Cost of Living Factored In
Dallas: 17,397
Memphis: 15,195
Houston: 11,971
New York City: 13,565
Fort Worth: 10,509
Washington DC: 9,876
Charlotte: 8,859
Boston: 5,965
Nashville: 5,761
Detroit: 5,077
Raleigh: 4,981
St. Louis: 4,563
Atlanta: 4,268
Philadelphia: 4,260
Baltimore: 1,716
Los Angeles: 1,232
San Francisco: 776
I did an analysis of some of the most talked about cities on this thread. The data is household, not individual. I tried to account for inflation and cost of living.
$60,000 in 2010 dollars is roughly the same as $73,000 in 2020 dollars. That will be my basis for the minimum of what constitutes Middle Class. So I will base the differences of $75,000 in 2020 from $60,000 in 2010. This is a harsh way to judge because youre comparing 6 categories from 2010 to 5 categories from 2020, but if we want to adjust this for inflation, this is the way to go.
Middle/Upper Middle/Upper Class Black Household Growth between 2010-2020 by City Proper
New York City: 13,389
Dallas: 5,023
Fort Worth: 4,375
Charlotte: 4,294
Atlanta: 4,268
Nashville: 3,973
Raleigh: 3,073
Boston: 3,055
Philadelphia: 2,548
Houston: 1,745
Baltimore: 984
Washington DC: 251 St. Louis: -60
Los Angeles: -172
San Francisco: -198
Memphis: -399
Las Vegas: -1,001
Chicago: -6,682 Detroit: -11,547
It has to be stressed the above numbers include foreign born Africans which is why NYC and Boston's numbers are so high.
But cost of living is a factor. What it means to have $75,000 in Houston is completely different than DC, Boston, and NYC. That amount is barely middle class in those other cities. Currently $67,000 is the median household income. I will use Fort Worth is a baseline with the income of $67,000 because its cost of living is very close to the national average. Then I will take the amount in the cities listed to compute what the middle class income would be. Below are the incomes needed in other cities for the $67,000 in Fort Worth.
San Francisco: $190,260
New York City: $130,691
Los Angeles: $121,824
Boston: $113,394
Washington DC: $108,586
Las Vegas: $74,993
Chicago: $73,556
Atlanta: $72,689
Nashville: $69,939
Raleigh: $69,310
Philadelphia: $69,185
Dallas: $68,716
Charlotte: $66,625
Houston: $64,556
Baltimore: $60,664
Detroit: $58,945
St. Louis: $55,386
Memphis: $52,638
The way I will recalculate is to compare the middle class values (the ones above) and Ill see what the dollar amounts were in 2010. Then I can calculate how increase in households above those values.
Middle/Upper Middle/Upper Class Black Household Growth between 2010-2020 by City Proper with Inflation and Cost of Living Factored In
Dallas: 17,397
Memphis: 15,195
Houston: 11,971
New York City: 13,565
Fort Worth: 10,509
Washington DC: 9,876
Charlotte: 8,859
Boston: 5,965
Nashville: 5,761
Detroit: 5,077
Raleigh: 4,981
St. Louis: 4,563
Atlanta: 4,268
Philadelphia: 4,260
Baltimore: 1,716
Los Angeles: 1,232
San Francisco: 776
Las Vegas: -709
Chicago: -9,879
I ran this example using the Great Lakes cities from my previous post, and my numbers for St. Louis and Detroit do not match yours. Just to verify that I was looking at 2010 and 2020, and maybe you looked at 2000 instead?
Anyway, for the 5 Great Lakes cities, comparing change between 60k and above in 2010 to 75k and above for 2020:
I ran this example using the Great Lakes cities from my previous post, and my numbers for St. Louis and Detroit do not match yours. Just to verify that I was looking at 2010 and 2020, and maybe you looked at 2000 instead?
Anyway, for the 5 Great Lakes cities, comparing change between 60k and above in 2010 to 75k and above for 2020:
I did an analysis of some of the most talked about cities on this thread. The data is household, not individual. I tried to account for inflation and cost of living.
$60,000 in 2010 dollars is roughly the same as $73,000 in 2020 dollars. That will be my basis for the minimum of what constitutes Middle Class. So I will base the differences of $75,000 in 2020 from $60,000 in 2010. This is a harsh way to judge because youre comparing 6 categories from 2010 to 5 categories from 2020, but if we want to adjust this for inflation, this is the way to go.
Middle/Upper Middle/Upper Class Black Household Growth between 2010-2020 by City Proper
New York City: 13,389
Dallas: 5,023
Fort Worth: 4,375
Charlotte: 4,294
Atlanta: 4,268
Nashville: 3,973
Raleigh: 3,073
Boston: 3,055
Philadelphia: 2,548
Houston: 1,745
Baltimore: 984
Washington DC: 251
St. Louis: -60
Los Angeles: -172
San Francisco: -198
Memphis: -399
Las Vegas: -1,001
Chicago: -6,682
Detroit: -11,547
It has to be stressed the above numbers include foreign born Africans which is why NYC and Boston's numbers are so high.
But cost of living is a factor. What it means to have $75,000 in Houston is completely different than DC, Boston, and NYC. That amount is barely middle class in those other cities. Currently $67,000 is the median household income. I will use Fort Worth is a baseline with the income of $67,000 because its cost of living is very close to the national average. Then I will take the amount in the cities listed to compute what the middle class income would be. Below are the incomes needed in other cities for the $67,000 in Fort Worth.
San Francisco: $190,260
New York City: $130,691
Los Angeles: $121,824
Boston: $113,394
Washington DC: $108,586
Las Vegas: $74,993
Chicago: $73,556
Atlanta: $72,689
Nashville: $69,939
Raleigh: $69,310
Philadelphia: $69,185
Dallas: $68,716
Charlotte: $66,625
Houston: $64,556
Baltimore: $60,664
Detroit: $58,945
St. Louis: $55,386
Memphis: $52,638
The way I will recalculate is to compare the middle class values (the ones above) and Ill see what the dollar amounts were in 2010. Then I can calculate how increase in households above those values.
Middle/Upper Middle/Upper Class Black Household Growth between 2010-2020 by City Proper with Inflation and Cost of Living Factored In
Dallas: 17,397
Memphis: 15,195
Houston: 11,971
New York City: 13,565
Fort Worth: 10,509
Washington DC: 9,876
Charlotte: 8,859
Boston: 5,965
Nashville: 5,761
Detroit: 5,077
Raleigh: 4,981
St. Louis: 4,563
Atlanta: 4,268
Philadelphia: 4,260
Baltimore: 1,716
Los Angeles: 1,232
San Francisco: 776
Las Vegas: -709
Chicago: -9,879
You’re going to have to breakdown your methodology for this. That explanation does not explain your methodology. You also need to show the raw number between the ACS (which should be 2011 and 2010 because 2011 is a 5-year ACS and 2010 is a 1-year) for us to actually see what you did here lol…
Also, if you’re using COL, you need to use the areas where Black people live in each region because there is a major difference across metro areas. For example, north Atlanta and Fairfax county Virginia are completely different than the southside of Atlanta or Prince George’s county, MD. That’s the reason I never use it. The methodology for COL is extremely flawed.
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