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Technically, Syracuse is in that region and the 50 mile radius had a little bit of overlap with the Rochester 50 mile radius. So, some of this will depend on the city.
With Cleveland, it essentially has more influence than its metro area, as it pretty much is the main city for NE Ohio. So, I guess that could be the way to view that area/region.
Yeah, I definitely include Syracuse when I think Great Lakes. It's kind like Youngstown where it's more off the water but is within the Great Lakes realm.
Starting at Syracuse, you'll have it start to bleed with Rochester; Rochester bleeds with Buffalo; Buffalo bleeds with Toronto and even a bit with Erie; Erie bleeds with Cleveland; Cleveland bleeds with the rest of NE Ohio and Sandusky; Sandusky bleeds with Toledo; Toledo with Detroit, etc.
It's not the Northeast megapolis but you can go from Syracuse to Milwaukee (if you go across Michigan from Detroit to Grand Rapids) and probably won't hit an rural area for more than 30 miles along the way. That's gotta be about about 40 million people total (including Ontario).
That streetview to me isn't really suburban at all. Most suburbs still have sidewalks and aren't a couple of houses that look like they are on 5 acres of land.
But looks like that is Delaware County which is definitely within the Columbus metro overall and is closing in on 300k population.
I'm talking more about Morrow, Madison, Pickaway, Perry and Hocking being included as metro Columbus as being the head scratchers. There is nothing metro about any of them.
Using Urban Area:
Cincinnati ~1.65M (Middletown is ~94k for about 1.74M if you add that in)
Columbus 1.56M (Newark and Lancaster combined are about 120k, so total about 1.68M if you add those in)
Cleveland 1.7M + Elyria 200k = ~1.9M. Ashtabula is like 27k.
They're not THAT different...again maybe 100k-200k difference.
Cleveland's number doesn't add in Akron and Canton, though - those two are separate enough to not really be Cleveland, but is definitely part of greater NE Ohio.
Either way, Columbus is not THAT smaller than Cincy. Smaller than Cleveland, yes.
I'll quote you again. I'd say it is more than a 100 to 200k difference.
Cincinnati and Hamilton is a no question. They are 35 miles apart but there is no breaks between them. The 1.75 million is the minimum for Cincinnati. ... yeah Cincinnati to Dayton is another story because your talking 60 miles city to city (and 90 miles from the northern part of Dayton's UA to the southern part of Cincinnati). So it is fair not to include Dayton.
For Columbus, both Newark and Lancaster are 30-35 miles away, but a lot of corn between Columbus and each. I'm not sure that it's exactly a given that you can just lump both on to Columbus and say 1.68 million. I'd say if you go there, then Cincinnati-Dayton have just as much right as being combined for now a 2.5 million UA.
Same with Cleveland, since both Akron and Canton (and Lorain and Medina) are more connected to Cleveland than Columbus is to Newark or Lancaster.
Basically you can't add the 120k to Columbus (Newark and Lancaster) and say that Cincinnati or Cleveland can't add on to their even more connected areas.
Really, it's kinda like you mentioned first.
Cleveland (plus Lorain and Medina) - 1.95 million
Cincinnati (plus Hamilton) - 1.75 million
Columbus (minus Newark and Lancaster) - 1.56 million
Columbus still does well, but it's still 200k short of Cincinnati and 400k short of Cleveland.
If you want to give Newark/Lancaster to Columbus, then the urban area numbers are more like this going apples to apples:
Cleveland- 2.8 million
Cincinnati- 2.5 million
Columbus- 1.7 million
Jacksonville. Duval County is almost a million because all of Duval County is part of the city but not a ton of population is in Nassau, Clay and St. John’s County.
The only people who think Cleveland is smaller than Columbus or Cincy are those who just look at MSA population alone (I'll add Pittsburgh to that as well). Cleveland is only 5 counties and less than 2,000 sqare miles and is still nearly 2.1 million. Columbus and Cincy are only about 100,000 and 200,000 more, respectively, and both are about 3 times in land area and gobble up a bunch of rural counties into their "metro" areas.
I'll take it a step further and say that Cleveland is still the biggest "city" of the three if you take away municipal boundaries and go by contiguous population density.
Cleveland can go to 1.4 million in contiguous census tracts of 2,000 ppsm or above. Columbus is about 1.2 million and Cincy about 900k. ... Pittsburgh is about 800k there.
Neither one of those takes Summit/Portage counties (Akron) into account for Cleveland either.
Good information. There are definitely more cities in metro Cleveland's orbit than the other two. I've driven around all three and without a doubt Cleveland felt the biggest and most expansive regardless of municipal boundaries and def the greatest density.
Cincy and Dayton would probably be comparable if there was more cohesion between the two but I just don't see it the same way I do with Cleveland and its orbits. I do like the urban core of Cincy though - the density is good and i love crossing from Covington to the DT core. The bridges and all its pretty impressive.
Columbus is a great city and I like it quite a bit but definitely felt the smallest easily. I think as well it is surrounded by more farmland than either Cincy or Cleveland so not only did it feel the smallest in terms of urban core density (though nothing to scoff at), but once your out you're pretty much feeling like you're in the middle of nowhere which is something you don't get in the other two so quickly.
Overall though I think Ohio has a pretty impressive trio of cities. I can't really think of any other State top of my head where you have 3 cities seemingly so even with one another.
Overall though I think Ohio has a pretty impressive trio of cities. I can't really think of any other State top of my head where you have 3 cities seemingly so even with one another.
I'd say Tampa/Orlando/Miami and DFW/Austin/Houston are pretty close too (maybe Wichita/Topeka/Lawrence?) But the Ohio trio is definitely my favorite of those.
Also agree that metro Columbus feels rural pretty fast once you're outside the city core. Cbus more than the other two cities really doesn't have significant suburbs that serve as their own job centers or mini-hubs (contrast Cinci with Newport, Hamilton, Oxford or Cleveland with Lorain, Elyria, Kent etc.) which keeps the sprawl from stretching too far in any direction.
This is part of what made is NC mid-atlantic thread weird to me, cause a lot of people apparently don't know From Atlanta to Raleigh is a Megalopolis cluster. NC cities on the piedmont is connect to Georgia Piedmont "Atlanta, Athens, Gainesville" by the SC piedmont Greenville or up state SC. but if don't know about Greenville SG it become easier to create a gap between GA and NC.
SC in general maybe under radar because of Charleston and Columbia growth.
Yeah, I definitely include Syracuse when I think Great Lakes. It's kind like Youngstown where it's more off the water but is within the Great Lakes realm.
Starting at Syracuse, you'll have it start to bleed with Rochester; Rochester bleeds with Buffalo; Buffalo bleeds with Toronto and even a bit with Erie; Erie bleeds with Cleveland; Cleveland bleeds with the rest of NE Ohio and Sandusky; Sandusky bleeds with Toledo; Toledo with Detroit, etc.
It's not the Northeast megapolis but you can go from Syracuse to Milwaukee (if you go across Michigan from Detroit to Grand Rapids) and probably won't hit an rural area for more than 30 miles along the way. That's gotta be about about 40 million people total (including Ontario).
I think you’re being very liberal with the term “bleeds with”. There’s huge swathes of land in this stretch with next to nothing on it. You’ll 100% hit tons of rural areas.
I'd say Tampa/Orlando/Miami and DFW/Austin/Houston are pretty close too (maybe Wichita/Topeka/Lawrence?) But the Ohio trio is definitely my favorite of those.
Also agree that metro Columbus feels rural pretty fast once you're outside the city core. Cbus more than the other two cities really doesn't have significant suburbs that serve as their own job centers or mini-hubs (contrast Cinci with Newport, Hamilton, Oxford or Cleveland with Lorain, Elyria, Kent etc.) which keeps the sprawl from stretching too far in any direction.
There are suburbia sprawl offices in northern part (i.e. Dublin or the area around Polaris), and not surprisingly, C'bus sprawl the most to the north.
The thing though is that C'bus city limit is (220 sq mi) is almost 3x the size of Cleveland and Cincy (Both are around 78 sq mi land area) - which means you can be in Columbus for forever, then just hit countryside after 3 miles of a suburb.
That streetview to me isn't really suburban at all. Most suburbs still have sidewalks and aren't a couple of houses that look like they are on 5 acres of land.
It is not suburban, it is exurban.
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