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The smaller cities in the Tri-State area are mostly doing okay, I think. I know more about Connecticut, so I'll go into detail there.
New Haven is great and has been for a while. The area around Downtown/Yale (including East Rock and Wooster Square) either has been solidly middle-class for a long time or is seeing tons of new development. I lived in New Haven back in 2003/2004, when it was already nice in those areas, but there's so much more Downtown now (including two grocery stores). In addition, there are lots of more suburbanish middle-class neighborhoods, like Westville and Morris Cove. There absolutely are low-income neighborhoods as well, but they're not blighted at all, even if they're a bit run down in places. The city is still 28,000 below its peak population in 1950 but has been growing over the last 20 years.
Bridgeport: Nowhere near as healthy as CT, but far from "dead." Lacks a solid middle-class enclave other than Black Rock (which tries to pretend it's a different city) and has a downtown lacking in both job anchors and commercial vitality. That said, again, the city has grown slowly but steadily over the past 20 years and is only about 10,000 below its peak. There's very little that looks like blight remaining. Residentially it has been helped by being surrounded by high-income areas, as there is always demand for low-income service workers, and they need somewhere to live. It really just needs to fix its downtown.
Waterbury is a bit of a different beast, but also...fine. It actually never experienced significant white flight or population decline, and is now at its all-time high in terms of population. The city core has shifted over time to be mostly Latino, and there's also a growing Orthodox Jewish population that migrated from NYC, both of which have bolstered population growth. I actually think it has one of the better downtowns in Connecticut in terms of being lightly touched by urban renewal, though it's far from being any sort of nightlife destination or locale for urban living. Unfashionable, but doing well for the region.
Agree on nearly all of this, especially Bridgeport.
You're way off about Waterbury. Waterbury White flight has occurred this century in massive numbers.
My $.02 from visiting New Jersey is that it's just old. it was suburban, warehouse, office park US before the metros further south and west started doing that. These structures weren't built to last forever. As they age they lose their sexiness and functionality. Ditto with infrastructure. It was a different flavor on rust belt, instead of factories from the previous era, it was warehouses and shopping complexes of the 50s-70s era.
The thing is this will hit the rest of the US in about 30-40 years. By that time a lot of cities like Colorado Springs or Atlanta will be aged to what this area is now.
My $.02 from visiting New Jersey is that it's just old. it was suburban, warehouse, office park US before the metros further south and west started doing that. These structures weren't built to last forever. As they age they lose their sexiness and functionality. Ditto with infrastructure. It was a different flavor on rust belt, instead of factories from the previous era, it was warehouses and shopping complexes of the 50s-70s era.
The thing is this will hit the rest of the US in about 30-40 years. By that time a lot of cities like Colorado Springs or Atlanta will be aged to what this area is now.
Ever been to Paterson? Beaten down, rough post-Industrial city about 20 miles outside Manhattan right on Rt 80. Known as America's Silk City aka the "Silk City" for locals. It's right out of the Industrial revolution and was the largest Silk producing city in America. NJ has a huge history in textiles from this time period to. So you definitely missed out on these parts of the state if you visited. Very easy to get to from NYC too.
Paterson grew by 7% last decade and was at an all-time high in terms of population in 2020 of nearly 160,000.
I don't mean to discount the issues that these smaller cities in the Northeast Corridor can have with concentrated poverty and crime, but for the most part, when comparing them to a similarly-sized city in the Rust Belt, there's no comparison. Demand for housing stays strong because lower-income people need somewhere to live, and everywhere else in the area is too expensive to afford. True blight (as in new abandoned buildings) is pretty rare, because housing demand remains robust, though admittedly with relatively low housing values, the vacant lots from the worst period of decline in the mid/late 20th century don't really infill. Downtowns are usually very active, if downscale.
Literally, the only thing that a city like Paterson has going against it is concentrated poverty. All of its issues flow from that. If it could capture a higher proportion of the local middle class, like New Haven, everything else would fall into place.
Paterson only grew because of its location. Trenton grew a good 7% in 2020 as well. Doesn’t discount the city’s massive issues. As a local, Paterson has gotten a good amount worse from 10 years ago while Newark has gotten markedly better. The blight is a big issue. There are 160000 people in Paterson’s 8 sq miles mainly because it is located only 15 miles from Manhattan but yes there are still very run down blighted areas in the city. & Yes in the daytime the downtown is busy, this is where a ton of the businesses are and many Paterson residents can’t afford a car so they take the bus downtown instead. However, at nighttime, downtown Paterson is a ghost town with not much to offer besides ladies of the night.
Obviously it’s location prevents it from the worst of Rust Belt-style all out decline but it feels like a rust belt city that’s seen better days, moreso than Newark or Jersey City just due to the sheer number of abandoned factories in the city. Concentrated poverty is certainly an issue, but nearby Passaic is actually poorer on average yet it’s issues aren’t as extreme as Paterson’s.
Everyone in this thread seems to be conveniently forgetting Paterson is arguably in as bad shape as any city on OP’s list and it is closer to Manhattan than any of the listed cities. If any city in the NYC area needs a makeover, Paterson would be a great place to start. One of its biggest issues with attracting new people aside from its high crime, pervasive drug issues, gangs, urban decay, failing schools and rampant poverty is its lack of reliable public transit connectivity to NYC. The fact that there’s light rail connecting Trenton and Camden, NJs 10th and 14th largest cities which are 30+ miles apart but no light rail connecting Paterson and Newark, NJ’s 1st and 3rd largest cities which are only 15 miles apart is shameful (& I’m not saying this to suggest that the River Line shouldn’t exist). A city with Paterson’s density and urban character deserves more than one 1x/hour commuter rail station. Paterson is a city that often gets overlooked in the context of the NYC metro but if it could get its act together, it has a ton of potential as a city, it has urban bones that put many significantly larger cities to shame. Assuming it would able to make those necessary adjustments it’d be a way more attractive city
Also Newburgh NY is another city in desperate need of some life. That place is a depressing mess for such a beautiful natural location.
You are right I forgot about those two.
Actually I think the govener of NJ should really work on developing an entire new extension of the PATH train to help low income and working class people who would probably save more using PATH than NJIT.
The PATh should be an entire network of subway lines simile to MTA if people had the right mindset.
A lot of people today forget that Bridgeport was one of the national models for distant-but-linked satellite cities in the post-Civil War era (what Lowell was to Boston in the ante-bellum era, Bridgeport became for NYC in the Gilded Age). Barnum and his associates deliberately attracted a major anchor manufacturer (Wheeler & Wilson sewing machines, which Singer acquired) from interior CT to what is now the East Side of Bridgeport, and deliberately designed a large neighborhood grid to attract labor, services and development (and also to allow labor to buy homes at advantageous terms) which eventually attracted many more manufacturing giants (Remington Arms, Columbia Records, automakers, and, especially, General Electric) to the area which lasted up through World War II (during which war Bridgeport was basically not only a but perhaps *the preeminent* GE company town of the time). A lot of thought and care built that city. The running of major highways through its downtown was the coup de grace after a generation of rapid de-industrialization and becoming an involuntary magnet for relocation of NYC's poorest residents.
There's no bittersweet song for Bridgeport like this one for Allentown (*not* Bruce Springsteen), which the singer/songwriters here crafted in the late 1980s from interviews of the last millworkers in the former silk mills of Allentown:
Out of what were Connecticut's "big 3" cities historically, Bridgeport was the only one which was entirely dependent on manufacturing, which is why it fell so hard. New Haven had Yale, and finessed this well. Hartford had the state capitol and the insurance companies (which it dealt with very badly, wrecking the downtown through urban renewal but retaining the major job anchors even as the rest of the city suffered worse white flight than New Haven or Bridgeport).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Agree on nearly all of this, especially Bridgeport.
You're way off about Waterbury. Waterbury White flight has occurred this century in massive numbers.
Waterbury has had a big growth in Latinos in recent years, as have a ton of the state's smaller cities (Danbury, Meriden, New Britain, Willimantic, New London, etc. However, this came later than the "white flight" era, which is when there was considerable general abandonment.
Obviously, there will be some vacant lots/abandoned buildings, but there's nothing on the level of Detroit, or even Cleveland, St. Louis, or Baltimore. Even in the absolute worst hoods 80%-90% of the homes are still standing. The population is at an all-time high, which means there really can't be all that much abandonment after all.
Out of what were Connecticut's "big 3" cities historically, Bridgeport was the only one which was entirely dependent on manufacturing, which is why it fell so hard. New Haven had Yale, and finessed this well. Hartford had the state capitol and the insurance companies (which it dealt with very badly, wrecking the downtown through urban renewal but retaining the major job anchors even as the rest of the city suffered worse white flight than New Haven or Bridgeport).
Waterbury has had a big growth in Latinos in recent years, as have a ton of the state's smaller cities (Danbury, Meriden, New Britain, Willimantic, New London, etc. However, this came later than the "white flight" era, which is when there was considerable general abandonment.
Obviously, there will be some vacant lots/abandoned buildings, but there's nothing on the level of Detroit, or even Cleveland, St. Louis, or Baltimore. Even in the absolute worst hoods 80%-90% of the homes are still standing. The population is at an all-time high, which means there really can't be all that much abandonment after all.
There is a good deal of abandonment as most of the population growth is amongst poor latinos who are crowding into substandard chopped-up duplexes.
Lastly, It doesn't matter if it missed the conventional white flight era. Its white population is literally less half of what it was 30 years ago. They fled. You can't deny that.
You're trying to make it sound like its some sunbelt city where whites are still going strong or maintaining their numbers and there is just soo much Latino growth. This is not the case in Waterbury CT. Far from it.
It's also a lot more than some vacant lots/abandoned buildings It generally blighted when occupied through the majority of its land area. Rundown, dirty, and crumbling describe the majority of Dirty Water. And high poverty..22% poverty. 48,000 median household income 17.6% college educated.
I mean...look at the video. Its a depressing economically weak places that fits the bill of this thread perfectly. honestly, If I had to pick between Trenton and Waterbury idk what I would pick.
Ive been to all the city you listed. Danbury New Britain even New London are a whole different vibe altogether than Wtaerbury. Those are much more functional healthy cities. All of them have a significant reputable college campus' in them (WCSU, CCSU, Coast Guarr/Connecticut College) except for suburban Meriden and nearly equally depressing Willimantic aka Willirico.
I guess I can say White Plains, NY and Stamford, CT are healthy places with Newark trying to grow steadily. We all know JC and Hoboken are used as just as fancy extensions of Manhattan.
But Bridgeport, New Haven, Waterbury in CT
Allentown, Scranton in PA
Trenton in NJ.
Parts of Long Island, Rockland county and duchess county.
Manhattan (and Philly if you are in NJ and PA) seems to be focal point of the entire metro area but would it better if Manhattan cooled off on the building and corporations became more open minded in investing in the surrounding cities in CT and NJ that appear to be somewhat flat?
I mean the talent pool is there and the transportation is there.
White Plains is close enough to NYC for anyone priced out of NYC to move to and still work in NYC.
Best thing to revitalize these cities is to stop all the building going on in the main cities, forcing everyone out into these smaller cities. Nothing else even needs to be done. Dont bring in anymore business, no more high density housing developments, no Amzn HQs. Just tell them no more room, and they will look elsewhere. That will revitalize the smaller cities.
Newark has apparently going through a short of gentrification at least on the northeast part between Ironbound and Red Bull Arena. Long Island is fine as it is. It is a bedroom community for NYC.
There is a good deal of abandonment as most of the population growth is amongst poor latinos who are crowding into substandard chopped-up duplexes.
Lastly, It doesn't matter if it missed the conventional white flight era. Its white population is literally less half of what it was 30 years ago. They fled. You can't deny that.
You're trying to make it sound like its some sunbelt city where whites are still going strong or maintaining their numbers and there is just soo much Latino growth. This is not the case in Waterbury CT. Far from it.
It's also a lot more than some vacant lots/abandoned buildings It generally blighted when occupied through the majority of its land area. Rundown, dirty, and crumbling describe the majority of Dirty Water. And high poverty..22% poverty. 48,000 median household income 17.6% college educated.
I mean...look at the video. Its a depressing economically weak places that fits the bill of this thread perfectly. honestly, If I had to pick between Trenton and Waterbury idk what I would pick.
Ive been to all the city you listed. Danbury New Britain even New London are a whole different vibe altogether than Wtaerbury. Those are much more functional healthy cities. All of them have a significant reputable college campus' in them (WCSU, CCSU, Coast Guarr/Connecticut College) except for suburban Meriden and nearly equally depressing Willimantic aka Willirico.
While there are parts of Danbury that look and feel like the other cities mentioned here, it also has a solid suburbanish component on its outskirts still within the city limits that these other cities lack.
Would love to see more partnerships at a regional level - this is one reason why I joined the RPA as a member. The org. needs more grassroots membership instead of heavily relying on corporations - like keep the corporates but balance it out more given how important the organization's work is to the tri-state area.
Now to the topic at hand...
I'll chime in on the CT part of the tri-state (NYC Metro)
Norwalk is pretty healthy and seeing the continued revitalization of South Norwalk thanks to solid TOD and repurposing of the corporate offices part of the city along the Route 7/15 corridor all while doing a good job incorporating the growing Latino population into civic institutions. It along with Stamford are two of the most healthiest cities in the tri-state (AAA credit ratings, diverse populations, job growth, population growth, decent schools for cities).
Danbury is seeing good growth too (especially with its Brazilian population) and has one of the strongest malls in the region along with the SoNo Collection in Norwalk, which is a feat considering that many malls are doing poorly across the country.
New Haven is fine - it's also seeing a resurgence with biotech and its longtime creative community. Yale is also in the middle of a $7 billion dollar fundraising campaign - so some of that will be pumped back into New Haven.
CT suburbs from Greenwich to Fairfield are the wealthiest they've ever been - for better or worse. Bridgeport is finally stable and is doing ok with the new amphitheater despite the legacy civic leadership still running things from that perspective (glad at least they're focused on getting new investment into Bridgeport instead of just petty local politics).
Waterbury is surrounded by some of the most provincial small towns in CT such as Prospect so that's a blocker in terms of cooperation, but it has been slowly improving. It just needs a new mayor with a vision - the bones are still there though.
Gov. Lamont has done a really good job partnering with Gov. Murphy and Gov. Hochul - I feel like CT is kind of like the Switzerland of the tri-state at times whenever NJ and NY get into intergovernmental fights (i.e. congestion pricing).
One thing we need to do is double down on partnering with the MTA based in Midtown Manhattan to improve rail connections and last-mile options.
The good news about CT is that they're no counties so now the state is finally stepping in to encourage cooperation and revitalization of our cities via Community Challenge Grants and Baby Bonds among other programming.
In the past, the state has left the towns completely to their own devices which is a disaster when we are all part of the ecosystem of a small state (like having 169 different gov't payroll systems is ridiculous).
Last edited by norcal2k19; 07-30-2023 at 05:01 PM..
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