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Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
IMHO if Baltimore and Washington are nominee then Boston Providence is definitely combined.
The real issue is it going up to Maine. And DC going out into PA/WV.
The area is less dense just because..it’s less dense. That’s just the nature of suburban settlement up there. Massachoicetts the mail in the head there.
Btownboss is also right about the culture and the volume of commuters aspect.
Once you get into these massive “areas” they’re either both right or they’re both wrong.
Oh I don't think either should be un-combined, they both constitute bi-nodal urban regions. I'm just responding to Btown's earlier post. This is a population metric, not a cultural unity one. I doubt the good people at Demographia have time to even begin considering that.
Also for Washington-Baltimore this metric does not expand into PA or WV, the CSA that does that.
Washington-Baltimore, DC-VA-MD- 7,631,000 2,124 sq mi 3,593 pp sq mi
That's 28 sq mi larger than Philadelphia's, and more dense than Chicago's.
Last edited by the resident09; 07-30-2023 at 09:54 AM..
Oh I don't think either should be un-combined, they both constitute bi-nodal urban regions. I'm just responding to Btown's earlier post. This is a population metric, not a cultural unity one.
Also for Washington-Baltimore this metric does not expand into PA or WV, the CSA that does that.
Washington-Baltimore, DC-VA-MD- 7,631,000 2,124 sq mi 3,593 pp sq mi
That's 28 sq mi larger than Philadelphia's, and more dense than Chicago's.
You can cut out most of those outer areas of Chicago or Philly and not lose much. The fact 2,000,000 of those 7,631,000 live 40 miles from DC makes a huge difference. There is an extremely tenuous connection between Falls Church VA and Towson MD. What connects them is a few subdivisions along 95. They aren’t one city.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Baltimore is significantly larger that Providence. Which means it adds a lot to the “DC” urban area but because it’s also much larger it’s much more independent which makes DC’s claim on Baltimore really really tenuous.
The issue is you have a personal perception that there's some "claim" being made at all. What is Demographia "claiming" for anywhere? DC and Baltimore are two cities that formulate one larger urban zone according to this metric and others, just like San Francisco and San Jose do, as well as other examples on their list. But per your first post you have a "problem" with DC's... You'll continue to harp on the same point until you finally acknowledge it. Clearly one can see the title's of the cities and see when more than one major city combine in a region both get named.
Just take a look at the 500+ other city examples global on the Demographia list, there's countless other combined urban regions of more than one city.
The issue is you have a personal perception that there's some "claim" being made at all. What is Demographia "claiming" for anywhere? DC and Baltimore are two cities that formulate one larger urban zone according to this metric and others, just like San Francisco and San Jose do, as well as other examples on their list. But per your first post you have a "problem" with DC's... You'll continue to harp on the same point until you finally acknowledge it. Clearly one can see the title's of the cities and see when more than one major city combine in a region both get named.
Just take a look at the 500+ other city examples global on the Demographia list, there's countless other combined urban regions of more than one city.
Suburban SF/SJ on the bay side of the mountains is very dense. San Mateo or Foster City CA is denser than Baltimore proper, let alone it’s suburbs. So while I think SJ is distinct from San Francisco there is actual urban development between the two.
Go to Saggsville MD or Worthington or Severn and tell me you’re in the city.
The threshold for urban is way to low. Most of central MD is not remotely urban. Much like most towns outside 128 are not urban.
Much like CSA’s everyone is somewhat overinflated but most of them are just like a 10% pretend boost of exurban crap. Only when that exurban crap leads to a real city being combined is it an issue that skews the numbers. And that’s what happens to DC, Boston and to some extent Cleveland too.
Last edited by btownboss4; 07-30-2023 at 10:05 AM..
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
You can cut out most of those outer areas of Chicago or Philly and not lose much. The fact 2,000,000 of those 7,631,000 live 40 miles from DC makes a huge difference. There is an extremely tenuous connection between Falls Church VA and Towson MD. What connects them is a few subdivisions along 95. They aren’t one city.
You have a lot of excuses...
Radius population from the center of downtown:
25 sq mi
Chicago (60604) - 5,701,413 (Chicago obviously hampered by water to the East)
Washington (20001) - 5,059,519
Philadelphia (19102) - 4,868,626
20 sq mi
Chicago (60604)- 4,621,082
Philadelphia (19102) - 4,078,208
Washington (20001) - 4,040,844
You're going off on tangents again. Nowhere do I see DC's pop dropping off. Anything after 25 mi it obviously balloons with Baltimore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Go to Saggsville MD or Worthington or Severn and tell me you’re in the city.
.
Comments like this just further prove you're not grasping what Demographia measures, and how they measure it. By your same logic those places shouldn't be part of any MSA either.
Last edited by the resident09; 07-30-2023 at 10:14 AM..
25 sq mi
Chicago (60604) - 5,701,413 (Chicago obviously hampered by water to the East)
Washington (20001) - 5,059,519
Philadelphia (19102) - 4,868,626
20 sq mi
Chicago (60604)- 4,621,082
Philadelphia (19102) - 4,078,208
Washington (20001) - 4,040,844
You're going off on tangents again. Nowhere do I see DC's pop dropping off. Anything after 25 mi it obviously balloons with Baltimore.
Comments like this just further prove you're not grasping what Demographia measures, and how they measure it. By your same logic those places shouldn't be part of any MSA either.
Wait what? Philly going from larger than DC at 20mi radius to 35% smaller at the UA is exactly my point. Chopping off those outer exurban areas of Philly don’t do a whole lot.
Only 52% of DC’s UA lives within 20miles of DC, for Philly that’s 71%. I bet Boston is pretty close to DC’s 51%, maybe like 48%?
Every City has an overblown UA because the threshold is too low ti be considered urban. But for Philly it matters less cause the population is centralized. For DC or Boston it’s not centralized that low threshold pills in neighboring cities that don’t belong together ballooning the population to levels that it shouldn’t be
Chicago is legitimately worse than I thought though. That seems to be a trend, that Chicago has less distance between itself and its cities coming up behind it that it seems.
Also on the difference between UA and MSA. There can be rural/suburban areas dependent on the city and just because it’s not urban doesn’t mean connected to DC. Usually in large American cities reasonable commute times not development ending is the limited factor in economic integration (see Riverside). But in smaller cities like Rochester NY or Grand Rapids you really appreciate what MSA’s are trying to do because they both have large areas that are rural/exurban but also certainly dependent on the city. But it’s also be dumb for like Brockport to be part of a UA cause it’s so obviously physically separate
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Wait what? Philly going from larger than DC at 20mi radius to 35% smaller at the UA is exactly my point. Chopping off those outer exurban areas of Philly don’t do a whole lot.
Only 52% of DC’s UA lives within 20miles of DC, for Philly that’s 71%. I bet Boston is pretty close to DC’s 51%, maybe like 48%?
First let's not confuse population metrics. There's UA by Census definition, and then there's Demographia's definitions. Those two are entirely different. The point was to show that they both are relatively same population from center of town, until the actual larger area in DC begins to show it. Also the population jumping Philly's at 20 to 25 mi radius is more due to adding land area in the NOVA suburbs that run way deeper away from center of town, even more than it is adding population along the stretch of suburban MD, although it is a bit of both.
There are very little exurbs within 20 or 25 miles of DC. You're in some form of suburban/urban corridor along that stretch from NOVA until you pass north of Baltimore. If there were an exurb near DC, or Baltimore, it wouldn't be counted for in the urbanized area. A better illustration with a UA map from Demographia showing which actual land area is being included would be most relevant here.
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