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Boston and Providence is trickier as there's no real major plan that's in serious talks of completion within a decade for greatly improving services within a decade as far as I know and there's an extremely low chance I think of Boston having through-running, regional rail. However, Bristol County which is part of the Providence MSA (maybe urban area?) is slated to get commuter rail service to add on to the current commuter rail service in the region via the Providence line. The counties between Providence and Boston are also pretty likely to grow and infill.
There will be 13 new stations in the Providence MSA coming from Boston... that will leave us with 18 stops in the Providence MSA by 2030. Most of which are nearing completion now.
Additionally, they opened a new Commuter Rail Station in Rhode Island earlier this year in Pawtucket, RI.
Quite frankly the drive to Boston from Providence is a breeze in my experience. Much much easier than Blatiorme to DC which can get up to 2, 2.5 hours at its worst. I've only once taken the train to Providence, but have a friend who says its nice commuting from Providence to Boston on the commuter rail.
Theres really one county between Providence and Boston really. Bristol county. I guess Norfolk too but by then you're inside 128. Most of Northern Bristol County MA is already the shared commuter shed area.
There will be 13 new stations in the Providence MSA coming from Boston... that will leave us with 18 stops in the Providence MSA by 2030. Most of which are nearing completion now.
Additionally, they opened a new Commuter Rail Station in Rhode Island earlier this year in Pawtucket, RI.
Quite frankly the drive to Boston from Providence is a breeze in my experience. Much much easier than Blatiorme to DC which can get up to 2, 2.5 hours at its worst. I've only once taken the train to Providence, but have a friend who says its nice commuting from Providence to Boston on the commuter rail.
Theres really one county between Providence and Boston really. Bristol county. I guess Norfolk too but by then you're inside 128. Most of Northern Bristol County MA is already the shared commuter shed area.
Right, I know that and I wasn't saying that South Coast Rail is a maybe. I'm saying that having regional rail with through-running and high frequencies is unlikely to happen. More commuter rail does help, but I think it's a relatively small step compared to potentially having high frequency runs that go from Baltimore to and through DC into Northern Virginia. There's a large expansion of Penn Station in Baltimore right now and a proposal for expansion of Union Station in DC. The rail bridge over the Potomac is actually funded (I think?) and Amtrak has started on projects necessary for the Frederick Douglass Tunnel.
In terms of counties, it's a bit different because DC isn't part of a county and neither is Baltimore (city). For Boston and Providence, it'd be including the respective counties of each city that have municipalities between the two key cities. I did think to maybe caveat or change the wording on it, but thought it was getting too verbose anyways as the point is communities in between the two key cities for each respective region seem likely to grow in population and thus infill a bit.
Regardless, those are the reasons why I think makes a better argument for single urban area for the two respective regions given transit improvements for the key cities in each respective region and the probably additional population growth for areas in between the key cities in each respective region. Does that seem pretty reasonable overall?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-31-2023 at 01:04 PM..
Yea, that's great! However, South Station has a bit of a capacity issue to be able to handle much higher frequencies like you'd want in regional rail and the North-South Rail Link unfortunately has not moved forward all that much. It would be great if that could be done within a decade, but I think given the pace at which infrastructure moves in the US and how NSRL hasn't gotten approved or funded, it would seem like a long shot. That being said, I haven't really kept up with the proposal recently, so perhaps it's further along that I think? That would be great! I certainly didn't know that the Providence line electrification has significantly moved forward. If they get EMUs for that and really reduce it down to 45 minutes and using electricity instead of diesel, then that should be a lot more attractive and would also probably mean costs per train operations go significantly down after the capital investment to do so. That, too, would make the argument for Boston and Providence being one urban area much better a decade from now.
Yea, that's great! However, South Station has a bit of a capacity issue to be able to handle much higher frequencies like you'd want in regional rail and the North-South Rail Link unfortunately has not moved forward all that much. It would be great if that could be done within a decade, but I think given the pace at which infrastructure moves in the US and how NSRL hasn't gotten approved or funded, it would seem like a long shot. That being said, I haven't really kept up with the proposal recently, so perhaps it's further along that I think? That would be great! I certainly didn't know that the Providence line electrification has significantly moved forward. If they get EMUs for that and really reduce it down to 45 minutes and using electricity instead of diesel, then that should be a lot more attractive and would also probably mean costs per train operations go significantly down after the capital investment to do so. That, too, would make the argument for Boston and Providence being one urban area much better a decade from now.
The social ties are such in between Boston and Providence that any many (most?) people do not go all the way to South Station. If the only thing keeping them from being one Demographia UA is linking two terminal train stations in the heart of DOwntown Bosotn.. it's pretty much there then.
Stops at Forest Hills, Ruggles, and Back Bay allow for you to hop off and begin taking rapid transit well before South Station.
The social ties are such in between Boston and Providence that any many (most?) people do not go all the way to South Station. If the only thing keeping them from being one Demographia UA is linking two terminal train stations in the heart of DOwntown Bosotn.. it's pretty much there then.
Stops at Forest Hills, Ruggles, and Back Bay allow for you to hop off and begin taking rapid transit well before South Station.
NSRL isn't just about having the ability to go to other destinations northwards from South Station as a single seat ride (or at least a reduction of one transfer), though I would argue that having such would probably help. Also important is the large capacity increase that it would allow for so you can effectively have MBTA Commuter Rail operate as frequent regional rail. Without it though, you could at conceivably still run higher off-peak frequencies on some lines which is still nice, and it'd make more sense for the Providence line after electrification.
Does what I said about why I think the rationale for Boston-Providence and DC-Baltimore each as larger urban areas having a better argument a decade from now make sense though? It's based on the idea of better transit connections to each other (more frequent, more usable, faster) and larger populations numbers and therefore development between each of the respective key cities. Does that seem reasonable?
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Does that seem reasonable?
Eh. I think the “decade from now” argument diminishes the degree to which the cities have already been closely tied. My grandfather would commute from PVD to Boston to take classes at Northeastern back in the 50s. Travel and cultural exchange between the two isn’t a new or actively developing thing.
Eh. I think the “decade from now” argument diminishes the degree to which the cities have already been closely tied. My grandfather would commute from PVD to Boston to take classes at Northeastern back in the 50s. Travel and cultural exchange between the two isn’t a new or actively developing thing.
I can see that in terms of us disagreeing on the threshold being already met. Would you at least agree that they are likely to be more of a cohesive region in terms of development and more trips taken between the two in a decade on compared to today?
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I can see that in terms of us disagreeing on the threshold being already met. Would you at least agree that they are likely to be more of a cohesive region in terms of development and more trips taken between the two in a decade on compared to today?
Probably in terms of more trips, but I’m shaky in terms of development. The modern trends seems to mirror the old one: new apartment buildings going up in places like downtown Attleboro, Foxborough, or Walpole while the towns in between like Norton, Wrentham, Sharon, etc. remain pretty sparsely populated.
I don’t foresee that pattern changing anytime soon without a big cultural shift in the state. So the corridor between Providence and Boston will probably never have consistent, even development all the way along it like you might see in western or southern metros.
Last edited by Boston Shudra; 07-31-2023 at 04:58 PM..
I can see that in terms of us disagreeing on the threshold being already met. Would you at least agree that they are likely to be more of a cohesive region in terms of development and more trips taken between the two in a decade on compared to today?
They may be a cultural region but they’re not an Urban area.
Like Foxboro, Sharon, Mansfield are not urban.
They’re two different Urban areas separated by quite a bit of low density sprawl
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