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Well, that sucks. Does it seem likely that within a decade there'd be a MBTA Commuter Rail extension to NH?
NH really doesn’t want to invest in commuter rail. And if the MBTA could somehow beg or bully the state into supporting an extension, Lowell to Manchester is a much bigger deal than Newburyport to Portsmouth.
There's not, doesnt exist. The MBTA doesn't have Commuter Rail or bus service to New Hampshire.
A lot of this is just the cultural influence of Boston's sports/museums/tourist areas IMO.
So much of the "Boston Area" is exurban low-density towns with no practical day-to-day connections to Boston.
Generally eastern Metros where Boston, Philly, DC, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Cleveland where 90%+ of its MSA is in even the Census’s urban area is kind of absurd.
While it’s true like Acton, MA is part of Metro Boston it’s not part of urban Boston. And there are a lot of towns like that. Horsham Township, PA? Metro Philly? Yes, Urban Philly? No.
I am a DC resident that goes to college in Massachusetts, so I'll chip in here.
In the past, I would have put DC and Baltimore in separate areas, often because of commuting patterns. However, with the rise of remote work, these commute patterns don't exist anymore. Nowadays, due to the overlap in suburbs between the two cities, I would put them in the same urban area. I would say Columbia is "local" but would NOT say that Front Royal is local. Going to college in Worcester Massachusetts, I agree that it and Providence feels very much part of the Boston Area.
Most large urban areas these days are somewhat polycentric. This includes Dallas, Miami, Philadelphia, SLC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Seattle. This is also common outside the US, with polycentric urban areas including Tokyo, Guangzhou, Osaka, Cologne, Brisbane, and Johannesburg. DC and Baltimore are one urban area, and a trip between the two either on Route 1, I-95, or the two Marc lines that go up to Baltimore, you can tell that they are one cohesive area.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Generally eastern Metros where Boston, Philly, DC, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Cleveland where 90%+ of its MSA is in even the Census’s urban area is kind of absurd.
While it’s true like Acton, MA is part of Metro Boston it’s not part of urban Boston. And there are a lot of towns like that. Horsham Township, PA? Metro Philly? Yes, Urban Philly? No.
For DC at least, that number's more like 80% not 90% of the MSA.
DC's Census based UA is right at 4,000 pp sq/mi, and more dense than those others by a good margin. It's the 3rd most dense UA on the Eastern Seaboard after NYC and Miami, and the 4th is Baltimore. The Census UA doesn't really go that much far outside the main Beltway ring of suburbs. It doesn't include Fredericksburg area, nor Waldorf, and at that metric is still kept separate from Baltimore's UA.
Taking a look at the US Census UA map gives a much clearer picture of how condensed it looks.
For DC at least, that number's more like 80% not 90% of the MSA.
DC's Census based UA is right at 4,000 pp sq/mi, and more dense than those others by a good margin. The Census UA doesn't really go that much far outside the main Beltway ring of suburbs. It doesn't include Fredericksburg area, nor Waldorf, and at that metric is still kept separate from Baltimore's UA.
Taking a look at the US Census UA map gives a much clearer picture of how condensed it looks.
Yeah DC has the advantage of being somewhat sunbeltish in that it sprawled into agricultural land like Dallas vs small town America like Boston/Philly/NY and has a smoother density profile as a result. However, most cities not LA, LV, SLC, SF, Phoenix etc where you basically have 6,000 pppsm neighborhoods… Wall… empty desert have oversized UAs because the threshold IMO is probably less than 1/2 it really should be if we were being honest. Maybe like 2,750 rather than 1,000.
But even on that map you can see Balt/DC do have a tenuous connection and a realistic lower threshold of urban would almost certainly split them up.
I am a DC resident that goes to college in Massachusetts, so I'll chip in here.
In the past, I would have put DC and Baltimore in separate areas, often because of commuting patterns. However, with the rise of remote work, these commute patterns don't exist anymore. Nowadays, due to the overlap in suburbs between the two cities, I would put them in the same urban area. I would say Columbia is "local" but would NOT say that Front Royal is local. Going to college in Worcester Massachusetts, I agree that it and Providence feels very much part of the Boston Area.
Most large urban areas these days are somewhat polycentric. This includes Dallas, Miami, Philadelphia, SLC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Seattle. This is also common outside the US, with polycentric urban areas including Tokyo, Guangzhou, Osaka, Cologne, Brisbane, and Johannesburg. DC and Baltimore are one urban area, and a trip between the two either on Route 1, I-95, or the two Marc lines that go up to Baltimore, you can tell that they are one cohesive area.
Osaka is one of those case that is somewhat resemble the DC-Baltimore situation. Osaka and Kyoto definitely has separate sphere of influence (Osaka and Kobe blend more towards each other as they are closer) and depends on metric, Osaka-Kobe is sometimes separated from Kyoto. Even the commuting pattern of Osaka tells the story - towards Kyoto a lot of local trains terminate at Takatsuki (the city furthest NE in Osaka Prefecture) whereas basically all trains towards Kobe ran between the two cities.
The bottom line is, Osaka-Kobe is DFW while Osaka-Kyoto is DC-Baltimore. But the like of Demographia groups all of them together regardless.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ion475
Osaka is one of those case that is somewhat resemble the DC-Baltimore situation. Osaka and Kyoto definitely has separate sphere of influence (Osaka and Kobe blend more towards each other as they are closer) and depends on metric, Osaka-Kobe is sometimes separated from Kyoto. Even the commuting pattern of Osaka tells the story - towards Kyoto a lot of local trains terminate at Takatsuki (the city furthest NE in Osaka Prefecture) whereas basically all trains towards Kobe ran between the two cities.
The bottom line is, Osaka-Kobe is DFW while Osaka-Kyoto is DC-Baltimore. But the like of Demographia groups all of them together regardless.
Yep. Guangzhou-Dongguan, or Johannesburg-Pretoria are also other international examples of this.
Yeah DC has the advantage of being somewhat sunbeltish in that it sprawled into agricultural land like Dallas vs small town America like Boston/Philly/NY and has a smoother density profile as a result. However, most cities not LA, LV, SLC, SF, Phoenix etc where you basically have 6,000 pppsm neighborhoods… Wall… empty desert have oversized UAs because the threshold IMO is probably less than 1/2 it really should be if we were being honest. Maybe like 2,750 rather than 1,000.
But even on that map you can see Balt/DC do have a tenuous connection and a realistic lower threshold of urban would almost certainly split them up.
Its very sunbeltish...
with the exception of NYC all true northeastern legacy metros are definitely bloated to fit the definition more applicable in more newly settled areas of the country where the majority of the American population lives.
Baltimore and DC connection development-wise is strong IMHO. Its cultural and actual cross-commuter patterns where it's weak. Also their economic trajectories diverge pretty significantly.
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