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Really?!?!?! And you have lived in other countries with sub-tropical climates all around the world for DECADES to take note of this? I think you are full of nonsense. lol.
He is full of nonsense. He basically goes around on this forum running this agenda that the south is somehow the coldest subtropical region on Earth. Look at his posts across the board, and you can see the numerous logical fallacies he uses when making his points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
I'll show exactly how different the US South is to just about any other subtropical region in the world. It is the average winter min temp or basically the average lowest temp reached each year averaged over many years. Another thing to look at is record lowest temp ever.
Good old Savannah has a record low of 3F. Wow how subtropical is that. Buenos Aires record low is 22F. Massive difference right there. Every single winter Savannah will drop to the low 20's or upper teens F. The average winter min temp averages around 18-19F in Savannah (USDA Hardiness Zone 8b). The average winter min temp in BA averages 29F (USDA Hardiness zone 9B). BA is the same hardiness zone as Orlando, FL, probably even warmer. BA grows many more types and variety of subtropical foliage that Savannah can only dream about.
There are lots of things you utterly fail at factoring in when you make such claims; yes, Buenos Aires may have a recorded low of 22F, but how long has the weather station of the city been in operation? If the station recently started operation, cold temps much lower than the 22F may have gone unrecorded. Also, Savannah is one of the colder cities in the Coastal South, try using a warmer city for comparison, like NOLA.
Show us some photos that depict the greater variety of subtropical plantings Buenos Aires has in comparison to Savannah. That will make your claim more valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Look at the temp bands below. BA has only 10% of winter nights with a temp below 39F. Meanwhile in Savannah shown above 10% of winter nights are colder than 26F. Huge difference in the temps each and every winter in each place. The US South has the coldest temp extremes of any subtropical climate in the world. Even Sochi in Russia hasn't gotten as cold as Savannah lol and Sochi is at latitude 43 North which is further north than Boston.
Now I hope you understand why Palms are so hard to get to survive in the inland South, and even in Houston and Savannah will be killed every 30 years or so. Nothing at all to block the massive arctic invasions every year. No stability to winter temps.
Buenos Aires in on the smaller continent that tapers off at its poleward end. Savannah is on the larger continent that widens at its poleward end. Of course Buenos Aires would be warmer during winter. But still, it does not detract from the fact that the US South is subtropical paradise that would be much warmer if all the liabilities were taken away. Again, you fail to factor the time of operation of the weather stations when making your arguments, as well as what may have happened before such weather stations existed. You also fail to consider the fact that maybe Eastern North America is under a cold epoch, a cooler period of time that all continents in the world experience at one point or another. There may have been times in history where Sochi saw temps colder than anything ever seen in the American South.
You keep on utilizing logical fallacies to make your points; you can't expect palm trees to be wiped out every 30 yrs. The cold blasts that have been affecting the south can be temporary phenomena associated with a cold epoch(that is gradually going away).
The fact that you compared Houston to Savannah further shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. But both are subtropical paradises.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
The Western US and SW (like Arizona) have quite a bit less instability in the winter temps, and lower overall standard deviation. Palms do much better in AZ and CA than they do in Alabama or Louisiana.
No offense, but this is such a narrow way to look at things. Palms can survive in unstable winters, as long as the deviation does not go to too low of a temperature. And you also forget about the coastal areas of Alabama, and Louisiana, that grow fuller, more healthier palms than California, and Arizona, due to warmer summers.
So it is basically just the extremes in the South that are different? Your typical Winter day in Savannah isn't any different from your typical Winter day in Buenos Aires.
Then again we might not be making a right comparison here. I am not sure how south Buenos Aires is. It might be more accurate to compare it to a city like Daytona Beach.
It is the extremes, but it is the extremes reached each and every single year. Palm trees of the more tender variety like CIDP do not like temps below 20F. Savannah will have a temp below 20F every single winter just about.
He is full of nonsense. He basically goes around on this forum running this agenda that the south is somehow the coldest subtropical region on Earth. Look at his posts across the board, and you can see the numerous logical fallacies he uses when making his points.
There are lots of things you utterly fail at factoring in when you make such claims; yes, Buenos Aires may have a recorded low of 22F, but how long has the weather station of the city been in operation? If the station recently started operation, cold temps much lower than the 22F may have gone unrecorded. Also, Savannah is one of the colder cities in the Coastal South, try using a warmer city for comparison, like NOLA.
Show us some photos that depict the greater variety of subtropical plantings Buenos Aires has in comparison to Savannah. That will make your claim more valid.
Buenos Aires in on the smaller continent that tapers off at its poleward end. Savannah is on the larger continent that widens at its poleward end. Of course Buenos Aires would be warmer during winter. But still, it does not detract from the fact that the US South is subtropical paradise that would be much warmer if all the liabilities were taken away. Again, you fail to factor the time of operation of the weather stations when making your arguments, as well as what may have happened before such weather stations existed. You also fail to consider the fact that maybe Eastern North America is under a cold epoch, a cooler period of time that all continents in the world experience at one point or another. There may have been times in history where Sochi saw temps colder than anything ever seen in the American South.
You keep on utilizing logical fallacies to make your points; you can't expect palm trees to be wiped out every 30 yrs. The cold blasts that have been affecting the south can be temporary phenomena associated with a cold epoch(that is gradually going away).
The fact that you compared Houston to Savannah further shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. But both are subtropical paradises.
No offense, but this is such a narrow way to look at things. Palms can survive in unstable winters, as long as the deviation does not go to too low of a temperature. And you also forget about the coastal areas of Alabama, and Louisiana, that grow fuller, more healthier palms than California, and Arizona, due to warmer summers.
Hmm Mobile, AL reached 14F this year. Loads of tender veg dead or badly damaged. Go onto some gardening forums and learn and stop the wacky propaganda that the US South is a subtropical paradise. You are delusional.
He is full of nonsense. He basically goes around on this forum running this agenda that the south is somehow the coldest subtropical region on Earth. Look at his posts across the board, and you can see the numerous logical fallacies he uses when making his points.
There are lots of things you utterly fail at factoring in when you make such claims; yes, Buenos Aires may have a recorded low of 22F, but how long has the weather station of the city been in operation? If the station recently started operation, cold temps much lower than the 22F may have gone unrecorded. Also, Savannah is one of the colder cities in the Coastal South, try using a warmer city for comparison, like NOLA.
Show us some photos that depict the greater variety of subtropical plantings Buenos Aires has in comparison to Savannah. That will make your claim more valid.
Buenos Aires in on the smaller continent that tapers off at its poleward end. Savannah is on the larger continent that widens at its poleward end. Of course Buenos Aires would be warmer during winter. But still, it does not detract from the fact that the US South is subtropical paradise that would be much warmer if all the liabilities were taken away. Again, you fail to factor the time of operation of the weather stations when making your arguments, as well as what may have happened before such weather stations existed. You also fail to consider the fact that maybe Eastern North America is under a cold epoch, a cooler period of time that all continents in the world experience at one point or another. There may have been times in history where Sochi saw temps colder than anything ever seen in the American South.
You keep on utilizing logical fallacies to make your points; you can't expect palm trees to be wiped out every 30 yrs. The cold blasts that have been affecting the south can be temporary phenomena associated with a cold epoch(that is gradually going away).
The fact that you compared Houston to Savannah further shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. But both are subtropical paradises.
No offense, but this is such a narrow way to look at things. Palms can survive in unstable winters, as long as the deviation does not go to too low of a temperature. And you also forget about the coastal areas of Alabama, and Louisiana, that grow fuller, more healthier palms than California, and Arizona, due to warmer summers.
The station in Buenos Aires has been in operation since 1906. Major fail on your part wouldn't you say. The 3F in Savannah was reached only in the 1980's. Some other palm killing cold years:
What do you think 7F does to a CIDP? Kills it dead and exactly what happened in Houston.
Happens all over the South. Pensacola went down to 5F in the 1980's.
This is the major reason why South Florida is so jammed pack with people. Everyone wants a reliable stable mild winter climate. You can't get that in the Southeast. Even people in the Southeast like to escape to South FL in the winter, since 40F and rain isn't much fun.
He is full of nonsense. He basically goes around on this forum running this agenda that the south is somehow the coldest subtropical region on Earth. Look at his posts across the board, and you can see the numerous logical fallacies he uses when making his points.
There are lots of things you utterly fail at factoring in when you make such claims; yes, Buenos Aires may have a recorded low of 22F, but how long has the weather station of the city been in operation? If the station recently started operation, cold temps much lower than the 22F may have gone unrecorded. Also, Savannah is one of the colder cities in the Coastal South, try using a warmer city for comparison, like NOLA.
Show us some photos that depict the greater variety of subtropical plantings Buenos Aires has in comparison to Savannah. That will make your claim more valid.
Buenos Aires in on the smaller continent that tapers off at its poleward end. Savannah is on the larger continent that widens at its poleward end. Of course Buenos Aires would be warmer during winter. But still, it does not detract from the fact that the US South is subtropical paradise that would be much warmer if all the liabilities were taken away. Again, you fail to factor the time of operation of the weather stations when making your arguments, as well as what may have happened before such weather stations existed. You also fail to consider the fact that maybe Eastern North America is under a cold epoch, a cooler period of time that all continents in the world experience at one point or another. There may have been times in history where Sochi saw temps colder than anything ever seen in the American South.
You keep on utilizing logical fallacies to make your points; you can't expect palm trees to be wiped out every 30 yrs. The cold blasts that have been affecting the south can be temporary phenomena associated with a cold epoch(that is gradually going away).
The fact that you compared Houston to Savannah further shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. But both are subtropical paradises.
No offense, but this is such a narrow way to look at things. Palms can survive in unstable winters, as long as the deviation does not go to too low of a temperature. And you also forget about the coastal areas of Alabama, and Louisiana, that grow fuller, more healthier palms than California, and Arizona, due to warmer summers.
Absolute and utter bunk, and you know it. How tall are the CIDP's in LA and San Diego vs Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, etc. etc? They are huge in LA. CA is a palm lovers paradise compared to the Southeast outside of Central and South FL.
Show us some photos that depict the greater variety of subtropical plantings Buenos Aires has in comparison to Savannah. That will make your claim more valid.
I'll do that and one better. The Jacaranda tree which is a beautiful tropical flowering tree, can barely survive in Orlando, FL. You won't find a single one in the Southeast that has survived to reach full adulthood outside of extreme S. Texas or Central - South Florida. But look here at Buenos Aires which is actually further from the equator than Wilmington , NC.
Now why don't you show me one pic of Houston, Mobile, Pensacola, Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans, etc, etc that have palms like this with Jacaranda trees? You can't cause you will never find any. Those palms are very old and in any city in the Southeast outside of Florida would have been killed off in either the 80's or 60's. Give it up and your climate delusions.
Here is winter 2010 in Charleston, lol, wow look at all those leaf less deciduous trees and that subtropical paradise:
I'll do that and one better. The Jacaranda tree which is a beautiful tropical flowering tree, can barely survive in Orlando, FL. You won't find a single one in the Southeast that has survived to reach full adulthood outside of extreme S. Texas or Central - South Florida.
That is totally and complete BS! Tampa has Jacarandas ALL OVER THE PLACE. In fact in South Tampa it is one of the most prominent trees that are planted in the yards and city streets. They THRIVE. I remember last Spring walking around the neighborhood and taking pictures to send to my mother. Most of the trees are gargantuan and have clearly been there for decades and are doing settled in quite nicely.
Please don't act like a know it all when you are clearly just posting straight up nonsense. I have a very hard time believing that a Jacaranda couldn't at least survive a little more north when they clearly thrive in the Central Florida area.
That is totally and complete BS! Tampa has Jacarandas ALL OVER THE PLACE. In fact in South Tampa it is one of the most prominent trees that are planted in the yards and city streets. They THRIVE. I remember last Spring walking around the neighborhood and taking pictures to send to my mother. Most of the trees are gargantuan and have clearly been there for decades and are doing settled in quite nicely.
Please don't act like a know it all when you are clearly just posting straight up nonsense. I have a very hard time believing that a Jacaranda couldn't at least survive a little more north when they clearly thrive in the Central Florida area.
Buenos Aires is at the latitude of Wilmington NC just on the other side if the equator. Hundreds and hundreds of huge Jacarandas. So u tell me, does Wilmington NC have loads of jacs? No they won't even survive outside of Florida.
What is with you people? The South is the coldest place on earth at sea level and at that latitude.
Hmm Mobile, AL reached 14F this year. Loads of tender veg dead or badly damaged. Go onto some gardening forums and learn and stop the wacky propaganda that the US South is a subtropical paradise. You are delusional.
There is no need to go onto any garden forum. I've toured H-Town and NOLA earlier this year, and saw that all the palms, from Queens, to CIDPS, to Washingtonias were doing just fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
The station in Buenos Aires has been in operation since 1906. Major fail on your part wouldn't you say. The 3F in Savannah was reached only in the 1980's. Some other palm killing cold years:
Name another city at sea level and at the latitude of Savannah anywhere in the world that has reached 3F or 9F?
There was no major fail; I simply wanted to make sure that you considered all the variables before making your claims about Buenos Aires's weather data.
"Insert any Subtropical City in the Northern Hemisphere" may have reached cold to the magnitude of the 9F or 3F at some point in their history when they had cold epochs. All subtropical environments experience cold epochs at some time or another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
you admit that Savannah is one of the colder "subtropical paradise" climates in the South. How bout Houston?
What do you think 7F does to a CIDP? Kills it dead and exactly what happened in Houston.
I see you used the numbers of H-Town's official airport, Bush. But there is another airport close to the downtown that has a higher record low, of 9F. The established CIDP's and other palms in H-Town survived that cold snap of the 80s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Happens all over the South. Pensacola went down to 5F in the 1980's.
This is the major reason why South Florida is so jammed pack with people. Everyone wants a reliable stable mild winter climate. You can't get that in the Southeast. Even people in the Southeast like to escape to South FL in the winter, since 40F and rain isn't much fun.
Actually, the Coastal South as a whole is quite stable during winter. A few days of cold does not detract from how long it is reliably mild in the Coastal South, where you can have weeks on end of temps in the upper 50s to 70s for highs during winters. Its not just South Florida snowbirds are flocking to; they are also flocking to South Texas, San-Antonio, Austin, H-Town(and its island escape, Galveston), New Orleans(and its delta areas, such as Grand Isle), Biloxi, Mobile( and islands, like Dauphin Island, Orange Beach), Destin/Pensacola(Emerald Coast), Tampa, Daytona Beach, San Augustine, Jacksonville, Brunswick, Savannah(and its islands), Charleston(and its islands), Myrtle Beach, Wilmington, and all the way up to Outer Banks/Cape Hattaras. All the areas listed have warm, stable winters much of the time, with only a handful of cool days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Absolute and utter bunk, and you know it. How tall are the CIDP's in LA and San Diego vs Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, etc. etc? They are huge in LA. CA is a palm lovers paradise compared to the Southeast outside of Central and South FL.
Palms like Washingtonias and CIDPs get taller in places LA and San Diego vs H-Town and NOLA not because of the cold, but because those palms have a preference of dry weather, as seen in SOCAL, and thus grow faster in those places than they do in H-Town and NOLA, which have humid climates. The Washingtonias are also very tall in El-Paso, TX and Las Cruces, NM, despite the cold those cities get.
H-Town and NOLA are palm lover paradises for "humid subtropical palms" while San Diego and LA are palm lover paradises for "Dry-weather palms."
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
I'll do that and one better. The Jacaranda tree which is a beautiful tropical flowering tree, can barely survive in Orlando, FL. You won't find a single one in the Southeast that has survived to reach full adulthood outside of extreme S. Texas or Central - South Florida. But look here at Buenos Aires which is actually further from the equator than Wilmington , NC.
Please, the Jacaranda is a zone 9 plant, it will be fine in H-Town, NOLA, Corpus Christi, especially the blue variety:
Quote:
Blue Jacaranda has been cultivated in almost every part of the world where there is no risk of frost; established trees can however tolerate brief spells of temperatures down to around −7 °C (19 °F). In the USA, 48 km (30 mi) east of Los Angeles where winter temps can dip to −12 °C (10 °F) for short several-hour periods, the mature tree survives with little or no visible damage.
In the United States, it grows in parts of Oregon, California, Nevada, Arizona, Texas, and Florida, the Mediterranean coast of Spain, in southern Portugal (very noticeably in Lisbon), southern Italy (in Naples and Cagliari it's quite easy to come across beautiful specimens). It was introduced to Cape Town by Baron von Ludwig in about 1829. It is regarded as an invasive species in parts of South Africa and Queensland, Australia, the latter of which has had problems with the Blue Jacaranda preventing growth of native species. Lusaka, the capital of Zambia, and Harare, the capital of Zimbabwe, also see the growth of many Jacarandas.
Plain as day. If those southeastern cities aren't already growing them, they can do so if they want to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Now why don't you show me one pic of Houston, Mobile, Pensacola, Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans, etc, etc that have palms like this with Jacaranda trees? You can't cause you will never find any. Those palms are very old and in any city in the Southeast outside of Florida would have been killed off in either the 80's or 60's. Give it up and your climate delusions.
Jacarandas are a zone 9 tree, and thus can survive in NOLA, and H-Town. People are even growing them in Austin and San Antonio.
Here is winter 2010 in Charleston, lol, wow look at all those leaf less deciduous trees and that subtropical paradise:
[/quote]
So you want to post a pic of a rare snowstorm in Charleston to make your point? Well two can play at that game. Here is Buenos Aires during the 2007 snowstorm: http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpre...ires.jpg?w=640
Buenos Aires is at the latitude of Wilmington NC just on the other side if the equator. Hundreds and hundreds of huge Jacarandas. So u tell me, does Wilmington NC have loads of jacs? No they won't even survive outside of Florida.
What is with you people? The South is the coldest place on earth at sea level and at that latitude.
What is with you? You always seem to be making these outrageous absolute claims (the South is the coldest place on Earth at its latitude....hahaha) Then again, it is expected that you'll exaggerate over everything, being a North-easterner and all.
What is with you? You always seem to be making these outrageous absolute claims (the South is the coldest place on Earth at its latitude....hahaha) Then again, it is expected that you'll exaggerate over everything, being a North-easterner and all.
I never said it was the coldest place on earth for average temps. I said for winter min lows (the extreme low temp reached each winter).
Go look at cities around the globe at the same latitude (at sea level) as New Orleans, Houston, Charleston, etc and then compare record low temps and average winter lowest temp (growing zone if you will). You will not find anywhere on earth with the winter low temp extreme anomalies that you will find in the eastern two thirds of the USA.
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I have a very hard time believing that a Jacaranda couldn't at least survive a little more north when they clearly thrive in the Central Florida area.
) Then again, it is expected that you'll exaggerate over everything, being a North-easterner and all.
