Best City in the Southwest (HOA, houses, theatre)

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by AZLiam

Wrong again.

If you go back and look at the posts (specifically between you and I), you will see that we were specifically speaking about downtowns (you tried to stretch that a few times), and regarding bars/clubs within a reasonable walking distance as well (which does include University). Map it from Congress. It's not the same as walking from Amsterdam to Kobalt (which is almost twice the walking distance) which you claim to be downtown Phoenix (Kobalt).

Yes, but look at the clubs I listed in regards to Miamiman's post. I am NOT wrong, I know what I am talking about; gay clubs RIGHT next to each other and in walking distance WITHIN downtown Phoenix: Amsterdamn, Club Downtown, Miami, Malibu, Sanctum, Sky Lounge, etc...These are IN dowtown buddy. Kolbalt, Club Central, Paddy's are gay bars in midtown Phoenix and maybe "almost twice the walking distance" from the downtown clubs, OR 3 light rail stops...

[AZLiam]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Actually, downtown Phoenix is only one square mile in size; it goes from McDowell Rd. to the north, to Buchanan at the south, from 7th Ave to the west to 7th Street at the eastern end. The 12 square miles you speak of consists of north only downtown but of the industrial, warehouse, distribution center, and manufacturing base of Phoenix. It also consists of the largest railyard in the west outside of Los Angeles, so the only population in the region would be downtown or the few neighborhoods to the east of downtown. An area in Phoenix the size of ALL of Tucson, has more than a million people, actually, the area half the size of Tucson has nearly a million people, this is the Metro Center, Central PHoenix, and East Central Phoenix areas. They are very small but contain VERY dense urban populations; nothing like it in Tucson or Albuqueque...AND downtown Phoenix IS in central Phoenix, it is a "neighborhood" of the Central City...

I thought I already posted this for you, yet here it is again (and it will be the last since I specifically remember you were having a hard time reading last time)...//www.city-data.com/neighborhoo...hoenix-AZ.html

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Key words, "Tucson WAS probably first visited by paleo-indians...12,000 years ago. "Village site dating 4,000 years ago."

Wow, you are really sneaky. What it said was "Tucson was probably first visited by Paleo-Indians, known to have been in southern Arizona by about 12,000 years ago.

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

I have doubts you've been to downtown Phoenix bars since you couldn't list any at the former crow-bar site that has been changed since 2005...you didn't mention the other bars that took its place and those that moved into the neighorhood. In Tuscon I went to the little gay pride event. The few gay bars there were very small and not very fun, I think there are 4 or 5 gays bars but was told there are 3 for sure and 2 may have closed. Been to Ain't Nobody's Bizness (the Biz; a sister club exists in Phoenix), and IBT's...been to Maloney's (Miamiman listed) but don't remember that being "downtown" in Tucson...it was in a "restaurant" looking one story building that looked like a Bennigan's:
Maloney's Tavern

A "similar" Irish pub/bar/nightspot in downtown Phoenix is in a historic building (San Carlos Hotel, I think 15 stories), along a small downtown streets with no on site parking...that is the kind of "downtown club/bar I am talking about. One example of a downtown Phoenix club in one of the oldest historic buildings in Phoenix: Google Image Result for http://cdn.rdcimage.com/microsites/301089photo1.jpg

Again, I was the one who told you that I used to go to the Crowbar when it was open and we know it's been gone for several years. How else why I know that? I park across from Amsterdam (in the gravel parking lot) and walk in.

In addition, why are you speaking specifically about gay bars now? We were talking about DOWNTOWN clubs/bars. You've made it apparently clear that you just want to argue and that you are trying to steer the conversation to help prove whatever point you think you are trying to make. Ciao.

[AZLiam]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Yes, but look at the clubs I listed in regards to Miamiman's post. I am NOT wrong, I know what I am talking about; gay clubs RIGHT next to each other and in walking distance WITHIN downtown Phoenix: Amsterdamn, Club Downtown, Miami, Malibu, Sanctum, Sky Lounge, etc...These are IN dowtown buddy. Kolbalt, Club Central, Paddy's are gay bars in midtown Phoenix and maybe "almost twice the walking distance" from the downtown clubs, OR 3 light rail stops...

Amsterdam and Club Miami are the SAME club (different rooms). Malibu is the outside back portion of Amsterdam. That's all ONE club.

Since when is Club Downtown a gay bar??
Sky Lounge is a gay bar??
Sanctum is 3.8 miles driving from Amsterdam...it's where e-Lounge used to be...that is NOT walking distance. It is closer to walk to Charlie's than it is to downtown.

I guess when so many people are clubbing in Scottsdale, everything else remotely close to downtown Phoenix is now considered downtown...

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by AZLiam

I thought I already posted this for you, yet here it is again (and it will be the last since I specifically remember you were having a hard time reading last time)...//www.city-data.com/neighborhoo...hoenix-AZ.html

LOL, that is NOT downtown Phoenix. Downtown Phoenix is only a 90 block area in Central Phoenix and DOES NOT extend to the i-17 on ANY of the south of west corridors. City data has that completely mistaken:

Other distinct areas include Midtown Phoenix, and the Biltmore District. When “downtown” is mentioned, its geographic boundaries are generally considered to be the 90 square blocks (1.5 square miles) centered on the intersection of Washington Street and Central Avenue

The city data map includes parts of Phoenix on the map that are clearly outside of downtown; the State Capital complex for instance, IS NOT in downtown and within that I-17 loop city-data calls "downtown." Most of the area in that map is industrial, manufacturing, and rail yards. The only real residential area in that map is the small downtown area, and a few to the east toward I-10..that means most of those 47,000+ people live in a very small area WEST of 7th Ave, look on the map, located 7th Ave and this is the western edge of downtown.

Wow, you are really sneaky. What it said was "Tucson was probably first visited by Paleo-Indians, known to have been in southern Arizona by about 12,000 years ago.

NO, it says Tucson was PROBABLY first visited by these Indians FIRST, NOT that they were in Tucson or established a civilization in the city over 12,000 years ago...trying to manipulate facts to make it seem like there were ruins like those in Phoenix dating back that long ago; that is not the case...

Again, I was the one who told you that I used to go to the Crowbar when it was open and we know it's been gone for several years. How else why I know that? I park across from Amsterdam (in the gravel parking lot) and walk in.

Yeah, and that must of been the last time you were there because you didn't mention the new bars in its place, just that you have been to this LONG closed bar.

In addition, why are you speaking specifically about gay bars now? We were talking about DOWNTOWN clubs/bars. You've made it apparently clear that you just want to argue and that you are trying to steer the conversation to help prove whatever point you think you are trying to make. Ciao.

LMAO! I don't even think you know what you are arguing for or talking about anymore...I have been talking about BOTH the entire city of Phoenix and Downtown; since this is about cities of the southwest. Can you not follow the discussion and when conversations switch between specific areas and the city in general.

[AZLiam]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

LOL, that is NOT downtown Phoenix. Downtown Phoenix is only a 90 block area in Central Phoenix and DOES NOT extend to the i-17 on ANY of the south of west corridors. City data has that completely mistaken:

The city data map includes parts of Phoenix on the map that are clearly outside of downtown; the State Capital complex for instance, IS NOT in downtown and within that I-17 loop city-data calls "downtown." Most of the area in that map is industrial, manufacturing, and rail yards. The only real residential area in that map is the small downtown area, and a few to the east toward I-10..that means most of those 47,000+ people live in a very small area WEST of 7th Ave, look on the map, located 7th Ave and this is the western edge of downtown.

You want to argue with and dispute CD.

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

NO, it says Tucson was PROBABLY first visited by these Indians FIRST, NOT that they were in Tucson or established a civilization in the city over 12,000 years ago...trying to manipulate facts to make it seem like there were ruins like those in Phoenix dating back that long ago; that is not the case...

You want to argue with and dispute history.

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Yeah, and that must of been the last time you were there because you didn't mention the new bars in its place, just that you have been to this LONG closed bar.

You want to argue with and dispute my life experiences.

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

LMAO! I don't even think you know what you are arguing for or talking about anymore...I have been talking about BOTH the entire city of Phoenix and Downtown; since this is about cities of the southwest. Can you not follow the discussion and when conversations switch between specific areas and the city in general.

You want to argue with and dispute our previous posts.


LOL.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by AZLiam

You want to argue with and dispute CD.

LOL, I am arguing with city data; this is the CITY OF PHOENIX government/official downtown map:
http://phoenix.gov/urbanformproject/aerial2.pdf (broken link)

DOWNTOWN PHOENIX URBAN FORM PROJECT (http://phoenix.gov/urbanformproject/ - broken link)

So yes, CD has it wrong...notice how the downtown boundaries are from 7th Ave to the west, 7th Street to the east and Central Avenue in the middle; this is on a 1 mile distance; downtown Phoenix is a very compact, densely populated 1.5 square miles with many of those 48,000 "downtown" residents city-data has listed mostly residing in this small space.

You want to argue with and dispute history.

Not arguing with history, arguing with your flawed interpretation of history. Get it right, understand it, then come back with some knowledge.

You want to argue with and dispute my life experiences.

OH, please, going to some clubs in downtown Phoenix is hardly just "your life experiences" and you not knowing Phoenix very well has nothing to do with someone's life experience, but lack of knowledge of a cities' amenities and makeup.

[AZLiam]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Not arguing with history, arguing with your flawed interpretation of history. Get it right, understand it, then come back with some knowledge.

Excuse me? I didn't interpret anything incorrectly. It amazes me how you can just turn things around to try to suit your purpose. Please go back and re-read your posts.

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

OH, please, going to some clubs in downtown Phoenix is hardly just "your life experiences" and you not knowing Phoenix very well has nothing to do with someone's life experience, but lack of knowledge of a cities' amenities and makeup.

OK, now there's no reason to be arrogant and rude, on top of being ignorant. I never said I had not gone to any other places, but you continuously kept telling me I had no idea about downtown Phoenix, which is untrue and just plain judgmental on your part considering you don't even know me. Who are you to tell me where I've gone in my life?

[CCCVDUR]

I like the first part of this thread, however for those of us who aren't interested in downtown Phoenix social venues, we would prefer to steer the discussion back to comparing various SW cities.

So I'll bring up another topic in the S.W. - Housing Affordability and Urban Villages. Many of the new middle class suburban housing developments in Albuquerque, Vegas, Phoenix, Flagstaff, and Tucson follow the Urban Village design. This involves a large entrance sign invoking natural features that pronounes the neighborhood (i.e. Sonoran Estates; Mojave Majesty; Cactus Crossing; I just made these up) with waterfalls and landscaping, sometimes gated.

This type of approach coupled with wide streets (up to 6-8 lanes w/ a landscaped median), and wide sidewalks, costs the homeowners a lot of money. The developers make these neighborhoods look very nice with fancy landscaping watered w/ drip irrigation. However, inevitably the cost of housing is much higher than it should be, with 150' wide streets, tall walls, and difficult to maintain exotic plants in gravelscaping.

Are there ANY nice new middle class neighborhoods in the Southwest that are affordable, LACKING these beautification elements that drive the housing costs UPWARDS for the MIDDLE CLASS?

That, to me, would define the Best Southwest City.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by CCCVDUR

I like the first part of this thread, however for those of us who aren't interested in downtown Phoenix social venues, we would prefer to steer the discussion back to comparing various SW cities.

So I'll bring up another topic in the S.W. - Housing Affordability and Urban Villages. Many of the new middle class suburban housing developments in Albuquerque, Vegas, Phoenix, Flagstaff, and Tucson follow the Urban Village design. This involves a large entrance sign invoking natural features that pronounes the neighborhood (i.e. Sonoran Estates; Mojave Majesty; Cactus Crossing; I just made these up) with waterfalls and landscaping, sometimes gated.

This type of approach coupled with wide streets (up to 6-8 lanes w/ a landscaped median), and wide sidewalks, costs the homeowners a lot of money. The developers make these neighborhoods look very nice with fancy landscaping watered w/ drip irrigation. However, inevitably the cost of housing is much higher than it should be, with 150' wide streets, tall walls, and difficult to maintain exotic plants in gravelscaping.

Are there ANY nice new middle class neighborhoods in the Southwest that are affordable, LACKING these beautification elements that drive the housing costs UPWARDS for the MIDDLE CLASS?

That, to me, would define the Best Southwest City.

There is a development like that in Tucson. Civano, on the east side, has very narrow streets, utilizes solar energy and rainwater harvesting technologies, builds only with recycled materials, has only native vegetation, and is not gated.

http://www.mojaveblue.com/images/tucson_civano.JPG (broken link)


It was designed by the creator of the New Urbanist movement, Andres Duany. As for cost, most of the homes run between $90,000 and $200,000.

[cacto]

miamiman, what major cross streets in Tucson is Civano located at?