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Old 07-21-2010, 09:17 AM
 
705 posts, read 972,587 times
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"Too bad we've gotten to the point where guns in churches and restaurants are so critical to our well being."

I dont think we've gotten to that point yet. It seems that some folks are just trying to excercise their rights and take exception to any semblence of that right being in jeopardy. One doesn't have to carry a firearm if they dont want to, but when the freedom of choice is taken away, that will irk some folks.

The passage of the Sullivan Law in NYC did little to curb gun crime. All it did was tie the hands of the citizens. I would submit that someone illustrate where the passage of a piece of anti-guin legislation prevented the commission of one single felony. It hasn't hapened and it never will. Passing a law will not deter crime. People are free to violate the law, and they will, and the citizenry will either be victimized, or prevent victimization. Again, the guns are not the issue, the act by the person who has no right to rob, steal, assault, etc. and does it is the issue. Government needs to do more towards addressing the acts and not so much the inanimate object.

Last edited by axemanjoe; 07-21-2010 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,282,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanjoe View Post
"Too bad we've gotten to the point where guns in churches and restaurants are so critical to our well being."

I dont think we've gotten to that point yet. It seems that some folks are just trying to excercise their rights and take exception to any semblence of that right being in jeopardy. One doesn't have to carry a firearm if they dont want to, but when the freedom of choice is taken away, that will irk some folks.
My comment was sarcasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanjoe View Post
I would submit that someone illustrate where the passage of a piece of anti-guin legislation prevented the commission of one single felony. It hasn't hapened and it never will. Passing a law will not deter crime. People are free to violate the law, and they will, and the citizenry will either be victimized, or prevent victimization.
How do you prove a negative? How do you substantiate what MIGHT have happened but didn't. That is flawed logic.

What I can tell you is this...look at the violent crime statistics of a state like GA, where guns are worshipped, and then look at a state like Massachusetts or CT where they are not. There are more violent crimes (and gun related crimes) in GA (per capita) than in either of those other states. Crime in general is much lower in those other states.

Now, you could make a lot of arguments as to why crime is lower in those states, but at a minimum....people are not victims in "victim zones" being shot like "fish in a barrel" and the worshipping of guns in GA isn't keeping anyone any safer on average. These are FACTS and not my opinion.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:12 AM
 
705 posts, read 972,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
My comment was sarcasm.



How do you prove a negative? How do you substantiate what MIGHT have happened but didn't. That is flawed logic.

What I can tell you is this...look at the violent crime statistics of a state like GA, where guns are worshipped, and then look at a state like Massachusetts or CT where they are not. There are more violent crimes (and gun related crimes) in GA (per capita) than in either of those other states. Crime in general is much lower in those other states.

Now, you could make a lot of arguments as to why crime is lower in those states, but at a minimum....people are not victims in "victim zones" being shot like "fish in a barrel" and the worshipping of guns in GA isn't keeping anyone any safer on average. These are FACTS and not my opinion.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you, proving a negative was not my intention. My point is that the passing of any gun legislation has not and will not, in my opinion and in the opinion of many people, prevent the commission of even a single felony.

I couldnt care less for statistics, but ask someone if they feel safer in GA or in NYC. By the same token, are there questionable areas in GA, absolutely. Are there areas where one would feel safe in NYC, absolutely. It's all opinion based. My opinion is that people are free to decide if they want to be armed or not and government has no business infringing on that right. Government should be doing everything possible to assist the citizenry in keeping safe and allowing them to be safe. For one thing, dealing with the criminals is a better place to start than limiting gun rights.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,282,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanjoe View Post
I couldnt care less for statistics, but ask someone if they feel safer in GA or in NYC. By the same token, are there questionable areas in GA, absolutely. Are there areas where one would feel safe in NYC, absolutely. It's all opinion based.
No, it's not all opinion based. You can look at the facts.

You and others are making the statement that we need guns in churches in GA, and in many other places, because without them we'll all be sitting duck victims. You and others are trying to convince us that without a gun, you can't be safe going into a church.

What I'm trying to get across to you and everyone else is the ridiculous way in which that sounds. I didn't use NYC as the example. You did, but if you want to continue that logic, how many people in NYC were hurt or killed in a church because they didn't have a gun? Remember, in NYC almost no one owns or carries a gun, and you can't shoot someone who's mugging you anyway. You can only use a gun in NY when you under threat of deadly force and your life is in jeapordy, except if you're in your home (castle doctrine).

In MA....almost no one has a gun, and I can tell you that I feel a WHOLE lot safer in Boston and most places in MA than I do here in GA. In rural MA compared to rural GA, in suburban MA compared to suburban GA, and in the big cities. The facts and statistics also backup that I'll be less likely to be a victim of violent crime in MA...without a gun. You have ignored that logic because it flies in the face of your assertion that to be safe, one must carry a gun. In places like NY, where almost no one carries a gun, if it's not safer there....it's at least no more dangerous.

Despite all the guns in GA, we still see day after day of news about shootings, both in the city and out in the country.
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:16 PM
 
705 posts, read 972,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
No, it's not all opinion based. You can look at the facts.

You and others are making the statement that we need guns in churches in GA, and in many other places, because without them we'll all be sitting duck victims. You and others are trying to convince us that without a gun, you can't be safe going into a church.

What I'm trying to get across to you and everyone else is the ridiculous way in which that sounds. I didn't use NYC as the example. You did, but if you want to continue that logic, how many people in NYC were hurt or killed in a church because they didn't have a gun? Remember, in NYC almost no one owns or carries a gun, and you can't shoot someone who's mugging you anyway. You can only use a gun in NY when you under threat of deadly force and your life is in jeapordy, except if you're in your home (castle doctrine).

In MA....almost no one has a gun, and I can tell you that I feel a WHOLE lot safer in Boston and most places in MA than I do here in GA. In rural MA compared to rural GA, in suburban MA compared to suburban GA, and in the big cities. The facts and statistics also backup that I'll be less likely to be a victim of violent crime in MA...without a gun. You have ignored that logic because it flies in the face of your assertion that to be safe, one must carry a gun. In places like NY, where almost no one carries a gun, if it's not safer there....it's at least no more dangerous.

Despite all the guns in GA, we still see day after day of news about shootings, both in the city and out in the country.

Mr. Neil, you're not reading my words correctly. Where people feel safe is a matter of thier own opinion. One's feeling of safety is certainly opinion based.

If you feel safer in MA, cool, I feel safer here, why, because I can carry a firearm here (well, according to the AG I can carry one in MA or anywhere in the country), but that fact notwithstanding, I still feel safer here. So is that claim opinion based or fact based. If it's my opinion than facts won't change it, and it probably won't change the similar opinion of anyone else. So it's opinion based.

I used NYC as an example of the crime issue having been poorly addressed by the Sullivan Act. You also need to have your firearm registered and have teh proper license if its a handgun before you use it in NYC, which is utterly ridiculous.

I never said church services were violence prone, and I didnt see any other poster make that claim. The issue is carrying a firearm in church.

"In places like NY, where almost no one carries a gun, if it's not safer there....it's at least no more dangerous." Mr. Neil, please tell me you're joking with this one. "Almost no no one carries a gun...." There are many people carrying guns in NY, a lot of them criminals too. You're making outlandish statements and claims. I grew up on NJ and NYC, went to JHS and HS in Brooklyn, I am very familiar with NYC.

"Remember, in NYC almost no one owns or carries a gun, and you can't shoot someone who's mugging you anyway. You can only use a gun in NY when you under threat of deadly force and your life is in jeapordy, except if you're in your home (castle doctrine)."

Sorry, gotta disagree here too. Lotsa folks in NYC carry, criminals and licensed citizens as well as regular folks who are not criminals but feel the need to carry one, albeit they are doing it illegally. You certainly can shoot someone who's mugging you in NYC. The law has nothing to do with it, again people are free to violate the law. In NYC if your firearm is legal and you're permitted you're OK, if not your alive and gonna get charged but you're alive.

You're wearin me out with some of your statements, I'd be glad to debate it or even try to enlighten you regarding my perspective sometime, just send me a PM and I'll give you my email or phone number here at the PD.

Last edited by axemanjoe; 07-21-2010 at 12:33 PM..
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:14 PM
 
229 posts, read 382,156 times
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Look at what happened in Kennesaw, Georgia when they passed a law that every household must own a gun!! The Crime Rate Dropped Drastically and has stayed extremely low for a city its size!!! (You can research this on the internet) Believe me, I would NEVER remove my gun from my purse if I was in a church or ANYWHERE unless I was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it was needed to stop violence against the innocent victim. I have made sure to be VERY WELL Trained with my firearm before making a decision to carry it. By the way I have never carried a gun into a church nor do I think I ever would, But I do think people who carry a CCW Should be allowed to.
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:35 PM
 
229 posts, read 382,156 times
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RE: Kennesaw, Georgia Gun Law... The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996. In 1982, Kennesaw Georgia passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in their home, exempting those with criminal records or religious objections. Yet, Seven Months after the law went into effect in 1982, the residential burglary rate dropped 89%, vs. 10.4% statewide. Crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982. And it has stayed impressively low.

In addition to nearly non-existent homicide, the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.
With all the attention that has been heaped upon the lawful possession of firearms lately, you would think that a city that requires gun ownership would be the center of a media feeding frenzy. It isn't. The fact is I can't remember a major media outlet even mentioning Kennesaw. Can you? The reason is obvious. Kennesaw proves that the presence of firearms actually improves safety and security. This is not the message that the media want us to hear. They want us to believe that guns are evil and are the cause of violence. The facts tell a different story. What is even more interesting about Kennesaw is that the city's crime rate decreased with the simple knowledge that the entire community was armed. The bad guys didn't force the residents to prove it. Just knowing that residents were armed prompted them to move on to easier targets. Most criminals don't have a death wish.
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:37 PM
 
848 posts, read 1,736,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
It's a handful of examples. I can also provide a ton of news stories showing children killed or wounded by careless people leaving guns laying around, or other stories of people killed or wounded by so-called "law abiding" gun owners.
A handful only because I quit posting links. "A ton?"

Guns are not the problem in your second example. "Careless people" are the problem. Guns are only the tool.

Cite specific examples (links) of your third.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Bottom line, you people are reaching so far beyond common sense and rationality to suggest that average people going to services in a church need to be packing heat or they are somehow ready victims waiting to be picked off. It's just so far beyond the pale that I can't even begin to understand it. "Victim Zone" ? Are you kidding or just paranoid?
Do you think the average people in the articles to which I linked ever suspected they'd be attacked in church? No, certainly they didn't. What I disagree with is disarming people who have a legal right to carry simply because it's church property. Armed churchgoers have already proven their benefit beyond our debate. They saved lives. And no, it's not paranoia, it's preparedness for situations that are unfortunately not so unusual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Stuff like this is what alienates folks like me who want to support rational gun ownership for true protection at home. The NRA and the people who take an all or nothing stance....guns everywhere or else....really make it hard to be supportive. I think our framers did an excellent job with our Constitution, but I think the one place they screwed up royally is not using clearer language for the 2nd amendment.
Do you believe people need protection only at home? It is an all or nothing proposition - it's either legal or it isn't. You have chosen not to exercise your right to arm yourself for protection. Fine, but don't infringe on mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
I don't think their intent was to allow unfettered access to guns anytime, anywhere, by anyone. Back then in the 18th century, the militia (what is now our National Guard and Reserve) was made up of citizens in a much less organized way. My understanding of the framers' intent was that they wanted to be sure that we preserved the manner in which we fought for our independence, and that was to have a ready militia and not rely on the regular army. The 2nd amendment was written (in my opinion and that of many scholars) to apply to that construct, and not the per se right of any American to own and carry a gun, under any circumstance.
I disagree, and so do many constitutional scholars. Jefferson felt an important reason for armed citizenry was to protect it against a tyrannical government. There is no shortage of published opinion credited to the framers that underscore the importance of arms to the people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Too bad we've gotten to the point where guns in churches and restaurants are so critical to our well being.
Yes it is too bad, and the reason is because existing criminal laws are not enforced. Restricting or banning firearms will have no affect on the criminal population except to facilitate their crimes.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 23,127,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
Imagine Jesus with His six-shooter! Bang, you're dead! Americans are very religious, clearly -but Christian? Hardly!
Nobody's ever imagined that.

Fighting Jesus - Google Search
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Cartersville, GA
1,256 posts, read 3,091,553 times
Reputation: 1090
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinit View Post
Look at what happened in Kennesaw, Georgia when they passed a law that every household must own a gun!! The Crime Rate Dropped Drastically and has stayed extremely low for a city its size!!! (You can research this on the internet) Believe me, I would NEVER remove my gun from my purse if I was in a church or ANYWHERE unless I was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it was needed to stop violence against the innocent victim. I have made sure to be VERY WELL Trained with my firearm before making a decision to carry it. By the way I have never carried a gun into a church nor do I think I ever would, But I do think people who carry a CCW Should be allowed to.
I agree. If a burglar is going to break into a home, Kennesaw, GA is probably the last city in the United States he is going to choose. You would probably have better luck finding an unarmed homeowner on an Army base. People who shoot and kill intruders in their own home are granted a lot of protection under GA law, and most burglars consider this fact when they are looking for their next score.
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