Lawmakers considering Cigarette tax increase... (to buy, income tax, to live)

[Drover]

Originally Posted by bellhead

Neil,

Read some history on why the income tax was introduced by the progressives in the first place. It was mainly to recycle money into the economy from the very wealthy during the gilded age. Ever since then they have slowly fought to have it thrown out.

"Recycle" money? What the hell were they doing with it before, stuffing it in their mattresses? Burying it in their back yards?

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by Drover

"Recycle" money? What the hell were they doing with it before, stuffing it in their mattresses? Burying it in their back yards?

Mattresses, mistresses, yachts ... does it really matter if the money isn't being rolled back into the economy?

Massive wealth accumulation doesn't help the general welfare.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Mattresses, mistresses, yachts ... does it really matter if the money isn't being rolled back into the economy?

Massive wealth accumulation doesn't help the general welfare.

Uhm, doesn't buying a yacht or spending money on a mistress put money back into the economy? Short of literally stuffing it in a mattress or burying in the back yard, how does accumulated wealth not roll back into the economy?

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Mattresses, mistresses, yachts ... does it really matter if the money isn't being rolled back into the economy?

Massive wealth accumulation doesn't help the general welfare.

First, who says wealth has to help anyone? It's certainly nice if it does, and Bill Gates is getting a ton of satisfaction from giving away his money and helping people, but what rule says you have to do that? Why can't you just be wealthy and enjoy your wealth? Isn't that what America is all about?

Second, are you serious? Money markets, stock markets, venture capital markets, economic multiplier from purchases, sales tax, income tax, and on and on and on. As the other poster said, do you think the money sits in a shoe box?

Have you ever seen a poor person create a job (other than a gov't job) or hire someone?

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by neil0311

I've not seen those graphs, but I'm familiar with what they represent. I'm confused and not sure of your point. So what if historically people paid too much tax? Do you really think a 90% tax bracket is a good thing?

What we need is a flat tax with a floor or the "fair tax" as described by Boortz and Linder. Under a flat tax, if you make a dollar, you pay the same percentage as me. If you make a million dollars, then you pay a million x that same percentage. Everyone pays....no huge group of people taking and not paying. The more you make, the more you pay, just no gouging tax brackets designed to punish people for success.

At what point do you think someone has paid enough? $1 million tax? $10 million tax? $1 billion tax? How much is someone's fair share, and why is it fair that many pay nothing?

Again...a flat or fair tax with a floor. If you make less than some agreed upon minimum income, then you pay nothing. Above that, everyone pays the same flat percentage with no exemptions or deductions. Fair and simple.

Flat Tax Fiasco

Originally Posted by neil0311

First, who says wealth has to help anyone? It's certainly nice if it does, and Bill Gates is getting a ton of satisfaction from giving away his money and helping people, but what rule says you have to do that? Why can't you just be wealthy and enjoy your wealth? Isn't that what America is all about?

Second, are you serious? Money markets, stock markets, venture capital markets, economic multiplier from purchases, sales tax, income tax, and on and on and on. As the other poster said, do you think the money sits in a shoe box?

Have you ever seen a poor person create a job (other than a gov't job) or hire someone?

Have you ever seen a rich person gain his or her riches without the aid of poor and middle-class people?

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

Have you ever seen a rich person gain his or her riches without the aid of poor and middle-class people?

EMPLOYEES and INVESTORS are compensated for their contribution. Customers have a choice to buy/use a product/service or not. Not sure I get your point.

[bellhead]

Originally Posted by Drover

"Recycle" money? What the hell were they doing with it before, stuffing it in their mattresses? Burying it in their back yards?

My bad it was the inheritance tax...

The income tax came in response to the lowering of tariff's on goods in a reform movement.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by Drover

Uhm, doesn't buying a yacht or spending money on a mistress put money back into the economy? Short of literally stuffing it in a mattress or burying in the back yard, how does accumulated wealth not roll back into the economy?

Yeah, that first part is probably true.

I dunno, tho ... with the uber-rich increasing their financial holdings so greatly these days when compared to 20 or 30 years ago, it does seem at first glance like a lot of resources are sticking to their personal estates rather than being circulated back into the rest of society.

[bellhead]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Yeah, that first part is probably true.

I dunno, tho ... with the uber-rich increasing their financial holdings so greatly these days when compared to 20 or 30 years ago, it does seem at first glance like a lot of resources are sticking to their personal estates rather than being circulated back into the rest of society.

The reason for the inheritance tax was because of the uber rich of the gilded age sitting on their money. It had a deliberating effect on the economy as so much of the wealth of the country was controlled by so few people that unless they bought something there was no money being spent. You have to remember during this time that the uber rich controlled not only vast sections of the economy but they also controlled the political parties to where many political battles fought were really only fights between competing companies in the say of the law. It wasn't until the progressive conservatives that there was a real reform movement headed by Teddy Roosevelt and his Bull moose party.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by neil0311

First, who says wealth has to help anyone? It's certainly nice if it does, and Bill Gates is getting a ton of satisfaction from giving away his money and helping people, but what rule says you have to do that? Why can't you just be wealthy and enjoy your wealth? Isn't that what America is all about?

Absolutely, to a point. I know a number of folks who have a few million in assets, and I have no issues with that. More power to 'em. Most of them earned it through hard work, and yes, that is what America is about, at least in theory.

As an aside, you seem to forget (or be unaware) that much of Bill's fortune was made by Microsoft flat-out breaking the law, and that the Bush administration essentially let Microsoft get away free after the DOJ found them guilty of a variety of anti-trust law violations. It's good that he's spending much of it to help others (albeit in a very calculated manner), but whether or not those funds should be his at all is an open question.

Second, are you serious? Money markets, stock markets, venture capital markets, economic multiplier from purchases, sales tax, income tax, and on and on and on. As the other poster said, do you think the money sits in a shoe box?

I really don't know. Recent happenings on Wall Street have made me rather cynical when it comes to certain forms of high finance, where people can apparently manipulate the price of a series of virtual products and make a rather large fortune while seemingly producing very little and also remaining effectively outside of the law. How much does that process help anyone else?

Have you ever seen a poor person create a job (other than a gov't job) or hire someone?

Please, Neil. Many poor people have started home businesses and created jobs for both themselves and others. My own ancestors did that in rural Minnesota and South Dakota ... farms, workshops, a granite quarry, a monument factory, all of it built from the ground up based on individual ingenuity and a lot of sweat. You think some rich guy financed that? Those communities started as a group of sod huts. Literally.

Bringing it back to modern times, I know dozens of people who make a living out of their own homes, who own stores and are able to hire a few employees to help with the business, who own small trucking companies, who are self-employed skilled workers able to hire assistants, etc.

The rich help make the world go 'round, it's true, but it will continue to spin without them.