Georgia passes Arizona type immigration law (Atlanta: sales, renting, violent crime)

[blkgiraffe]

Great job Georgia! Sure, the law is pretty flawed, but the fact the state is taking action impresses me. Texas needs to get it together.

[testa50]

Originally Posted by neil0311

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'd love to know how and why you feel this is a "sad day" for Georgia? What is your solution? Do you feel the feds are meeting their obligation, making a law at the state level unnecessary? Or...are you one who just feels our borders should be open and people breaking the law to come and work here, and the companies who hire them...are just misunderstood?

I'm of the opinion that border controls designed to prevent the free movement of labor are an unjust infringement upon the rights of American private property owners. I'm typically against government intrusion into economic matters, and any intervention should be clearly backed up by costs and benefits--this one is not by any I have seen. I think the growth of government in this country is generally overreaching on all levels of government (not just federal), and unless I see clear benefits to be reaped I am generally opposed to growth in discretionary power by bureaucrats and police officers.

As someone who produces specialized services and consumes a range of goods and services that often require a large unskilled labor component, the illegal immigrant population has a significant net benefit on my life. As an aside, any research I've done about the actual degree to which I am subsidizing illegal immigrants through the tax system has left me feeling that it the extent to which this actually occurs is very modest at best. To the extent that it does occur, the only two rational responses are to kick all illegals out or to allow legal status and introduction into the tax system with a limit on benefits--the former is unfeasible and detrimental, so the latter is the only rational response if your true goal is to stop subsidizing illegals (the fact that anti-illegal immigrant folks don't advocate this is telling).

Also, I think lots of laws our own government has are ridiculous and unnecessary. If the consequences of getting caught don't outweigh the benefits I gain from breaking them, I will consider breaking them freely--speeding, for instance. And that's in my own country--I damned sure don't have much concern for the nonsensical laws of other countries beyond not getting caught breaking them. I have broken laws in other countries (visa laws, money exchange laws, political speech laws, and public photography laws, among others), and have been caught on occasion, and have absolutely no regrets and would certainly not be deterred by any moral obligation to said foreign country's laws if I were to do it all over again.

So when I picture myself in the position of providing for an impoverished family, I don't think I'd have an iota of hesitation for breaking the laws of a foreign country in order to change that--I think any responsible provider would feel the same way. If you have an alternate opinion on this point I'd be glad to hear it.


And yes, I think this law was mainly enacted for xenophobic reasons, and it's sad when I see how prevalent xenophobia is in my home state. I know people will respond with non-xenophobic reasons for the law, and I agree these could be the only basis upon which they advocate this law, but personally I don't buy it one bit on a larger scale. Just about every oppressive law in the world has some theoretical justification beyond the government wanting to be oppressive and serve its own interests, but that doesn't mean individuals shouldn't look beyond the rhetoric and question why these laws are actually in place. Same goes for this immigration law--I see enough racism and xenophobia in my daily life to personally rule out the idea that the broad support this law gets is wholly for non-racist and non-xenophobic reasons.

Just to be crystal clear in case the above is too wordy, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone who supports the law is a xenophobe. But I think many are--quite possibly most.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by testa50

And yes, I think this law was mainly enacted for xenophobic reasons, and it's sad when I see how prevalent xenophobia is in my home state. I know people will respond with non-xenophobic reasons for the law, and I agree these could be the only basis upon which they advocate this law, but personally I don't buy it one bit on a larger scale. Just about every oppressive law in the world has some theoretical justification beyond the government wanting to be oppressive and serve its own interests, but that doesn't mean individuals shouldn't look beyond the rhetoric and question why these laws are actually in place. Same goes for this immigration law--I see enough racism and xenophobia in my daily life to personally rule out the idea that the broad support this law gets is wholly for non-racist and non-xenophobic reasons.

Just to be crystal clear in case the above is too wordy, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone who supports the law is a xenophobe. But I think many are--quite possibly most.

I can agree to disagree and respect your opinion, but the above part of your response is where I draw the line. This is the standard ad hominem attack if you can't make the case on the merits, then why not call your opponents racists and xenophobes. I frankly find the implication offensive.

This is a simple issue. People who come here illegally are breaking the law. Businesses that hire them are also breaking the law. The coincidental fact is that most of the illegals are from Mexico and central/south America because of proximity. There are also Irish illegals and illegals from other countries. Race is only an issue to those who want to make it one to try and muddy the real issue.

Enforcing our laws has absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia and everything to do with sanity and enforcing our laws. We need to do what Mexico does. Mexico would not and does not tolerate foreigners overstaying visas or entering the country illegally. Are they xenophobes too?

[mike7586]

Originally Posted by tckr83

Bahaha! Come on now... If you're upset about your tax payer dollars going to this immigration legislation that was just passed, you should be LIVID about the amount of tax money essentially spent/wasted for the results we get from our wonderful "department of education". We (american taxpayers) could save a whole bunch of money if this failed Guv'ment department was taken out to pasture and put down.

Oh ok. Unfortunately I'm not surprised by that statement. Having lived in GA for only a year, I've already realized how little education is valued here.

My point is it makes no sense to try to enforce this when we know the state will get sued and it's going to be expensive. It's a waste of money. Why couldn't they wait and see the outcome of the AZ bill first?

Also, if every state goes the route of GA and AZ, how can we have 50 different immigration laws (some being more extreme than others) for one country? This is a federal issue and states need to be using other means to pressure the feds.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by mike7586

Having lived in GA for only a year, I've already realized how little education is valued here.

Where do statements like this come from? How many other states have anything close to the HOPE Scholarship?

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by mike7586

This is a federal issue and states need to be using other means to pressure the feds.

True, but the feds...and both parties...have abdicated their responsibility for 30 years now.

[mike7586]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Where do statements like this come from? How many other states have anything close to the HOPE Scholarship?

You mean what was the HOPE scholarship? It's still a great asset, but it doesn't change the fact that GA ranks near the bottom in education. It's a clear illustration of how little people in the state (outside certain parts of metro Atlanta) value it.

[aus10]

Originally Posted by neil0311

This is a simple issue. People who come here illegally are breaking the law. Businesses that hire them are also breaking the law.

Bravo!!! Just what about the word illegal don't people understand? Webster's has the definition... maybe it's time for some folks to look it up! Do illegal activities, go to jail... or go back to your homeland. It's as simple as that....

[testa50]

Originally Posted by neil0311

I can agree to disagree and respect your opinion, but the above part of your response is where I draw the line. This is the standard ad hominem attack if you can't make the case on the merits, then why not call your opponents racists and xenophobes. I frankly find the implication offensive.

So you think that exactly none of the support that this law gets is motivated by xenophobia? That would be a pretty odd conclusion to draw from all of this.

If you agree that some of the motivation for the law is xenophobic, then it's only by degrees whether you estimate "some" to be "a little", "much", or "most". The notion that someone would get offended by these distinctions is quite odd.

This is a simple issue. People who come here illegally are breaking the law. Businesses that hire them are also breaking the law.

I've already stated that I don't care about laws just because they are laws. I care about laws to the extent that they protect the property and rights of others. The immigration law does nothing of this sort, just like all of the other laws big-government types push for in this country.

The coincidental fact is that most of the illegals are from Mexico and central/south America because of proximity. There are also Irish illegals and illegals from other countries. Race is only an issue to those who want to make it one to try and muddy the real issue.

By "real issue" I guess you are discussing the benefits this will bring to our state? If so, describe the real issue, please. The evidence I've seen of any benefit this bill will bring has been woefully lacking.

Enforcing our laws has absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia and everything to do with sanity and enforcing our laws. We need to do what Mexico does. Mexico would not and does not tolerate foreigners overstaying visas or entering the country illegally. Are they xenophobes too?

There are xenophobes in Mexico, there are xenophobes in Europe, there are xenophobes in South Africa (most of whom in the latter case are black, in case you were wondering). They all pass laws with xenophobic motivations. But isn't America supposed to be the shining beacon of freedom in this world? Why are we taking the lead of a bunch of countries with lots of age-old socialist nonsense on their books? Are we not a cut above? It's hard to even see what makes this country special anymore sometimes...

And if we have a terrible (and coincidentally unenforceable) law, I'd much rather we get rid of it than enforce it. We've gotten rid of lots of terrible laws in the past (indeed, the American Revolution was started by a bunch of brazen lawbreakers); it's time to do it again.

[convextech]

Point blank, the immigrants that are not legal are not paying taxes. They are sending their dollars back to Mexico where it is being spent, not here. Get the hell out. We have enough probblems without your mooching off of us.