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Old 06-14-2010, 04:49 PM
 
479 posts, read 699,407 times
Reputation: 205

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner View Post
This is probably true.

I would rather the US go to a socialized medical program similar to those implemented in most of Europe ... they seem to be able to do a better job (in the general case) with less, and fewer people fall through the cracks ... but I'm sure this is considered an extreme view by some. *shrug*
"The problem with socialism is, you eventually run out of other people's money."

Checked out Europe lately? Its a mess. The whole place is imploding from excessive sovereign (govt) debt as a result of those wonderful social programs. Greece's debt was just downgraded to Junk status. Yea, great idea, lets be like the soon to be failed europe.

And yea, your idea of socialized medicine is considered so radical they couldnt even get your democrat friendly congress to support it.

 
Old 06-14-2010, 04:57 PM
 
479 posts, read 699,407 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Given that fact and the fact that not all white northerns who move here are conservative, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of asians and latinos that also move here also trend Democratic, you can see where this is going.
Hundreds of thousands of asians and latins that move here, really? Last time I checked latins were leaving because there werent any construction jobs and asians were still a small minority here (SF this aint)

Georgia, along with the rest of the country, is getting redder by the day. Just cause you won one election doesnt mean the country is undergone some radical change since GWB won back to back. By the time 2012 gets here a lot of (non-black) BO voters in 2010 will have regained their senses.
 
Old 06-14-2010, 05:15 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,468 posts, read 14,904,169 times
Reputation: 7263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullbear View Post
Hundreds of thousands of asians and latins that move here, really? Last time I checked latins were leaving because there werent any construction jobs and asians were still a small minority here (SF this aint)
Any evidence that latinos are leaving en masse? It's quite the opposite where I live.

And yes, hundreds of thousands of Asians have moved here in the last 2 decades (not to mention all the kids they've had). Their numbers are close to half million mark now. SF this aint, but it's not old Georgia either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullbear View Post
Georgia, along with the rest of the country, is getting redder by the day. Just cause you won one election doesnt mean the country is undergone some radical change since GWB won back to back. By the time 2012 gets here a lot of (non-black) BO voters in 2010 will have regained their senses.
Let me know how that fantasy world turns....
 
Old 06-14-2010, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Norman, OK
3,478 posts, read 7,226,508 times
Reputation: 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullbear View Post
"The problem with socialism is, you eventually run out of other people's money."

Checked out Europe lately? Its a mess. The whole place is imploding from excessive sovereign (govt) debt as a result of those wonderful social programs. Greece's debt was just downgraded to Junk status. Yea, great idea, lets be like the soon to be failed europe.

And yea, your idea of socialized medicine is considered so radical they couldnt even get your democrat friendly congress to support it.
Exactly. Just as Americans were beginning to think about a step toward a more socialized government (I don't believe that Obama represents complete socialism, but he and the current Dem leaders certainly lean that way in some respects), European nations that have embraced socialist democracies are either falling apart (Greece), on the verge of it (Spain, Italy, Portugal, even England to a point), or are suffering greatly because of their EU pals (France, Germany, and other EU nations). The only ones escaping severe economic crisis are the Scandinavian countries who didn't embrace the euro and have had competent, tightly knit governments, even if they are heavily taxed and socialized.

Bottom line - Europe's downturn has curbed economic recovery in this country as investors and business leaders are now more uncertain about the future and it will ultimately affect our own policies from healthcare to deficit spending to cap and trade. It would be foolish for anyone (liberal or conservative) to ignore or not acknowledge the harbinger that the European turmoil has for an overspending American government.
 
Old 06-14-2010, 05:43 PM
 
906 posts, read 1,739,533 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by ampatriot005 View Post
+1 !
I am a former Dem and I am disgusted. When any politician over reaches, they should rightfully be thrown out. 60% of America was against Health Control Deform and they pass it anyways?!
Your claim is false. Or it at least misrepresents the polling data. Once the law passed, there was a clear majority who supported the bill: Poll: Health care plan gains favor - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm - broken link)

Now, even before passage, there were a number of polls that did show that there was a majority of voters who were not in favor of the specific health care reform bill composed in Congress. But if you looked at the data more closely, you'd see why: roughly 15% of those disapproving felt that bill did not go far enough in providing universal health care. In other words, there were plenty of liberals who were annoyed that there was not even a possibility of a public option to compete with the private industry options. If you add that to the 40% or so who were in favor of the bill...voila, you have a majority who supported health care all throughout the polls. Conservatives and the (not-actually-very-liberal) mainstream media typically misrepresented or misunderstood those polls. But any poll that did a breakdown of voter motivations typically showed this pattern.

And to your question about Republicans "ramming through" agenda items that weren't particularly popular with the electorate? Of course they did! When Republicans ruled the Senate, they used reconciliation--the 50+ votes strategy to break through a filibuster used by Dems on the health care measure--numerous times, particularly when bestowing tax cuts upon the wealthiest Americans. (Ezra Klein - Did Republicans use reconciliation for significantly bipartisan bills?)

The biggest difference in my mind is that the Republicans didn't even pretend to make those tax-cuts "bi-partisan." They found a way around the traditional practices and rammed the bills through despite substantial opposition by Senate Democrats. With health care, the Democrats (stupidly, IMO) thought they would get Republican support by adding in Republican ideas (cf. Bob Dole's health care bill and the idea of national exchanges). Even with a 1990s Republican-style bill, the Democrats wasted over a year trying to get a single Republican to support the bill. They would have saved much more time by simply ramming it through the Senate in the first place. (Which, obviously, they DIDN'T do.)
 
Old 06-14-2010, 05:51 PM
 
906 posts, read 1,739,533 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxjay View Post
Exactly. Just as Americans were beginning to think about a step toward a more socialized government (I don't believe that Obama represents complete socialism, but he and the current Dem leaders certainly lean that way in some respects), European nations that have embraced socialist democracies are either falling apart (Greece), on the verge of it (Spain, Italy, Portugal, even England to a point), or are suffering greatly because of their EU pals (France, Germany, and other EU nations). The only ones escaping severe economic crisis are the Scandinavian countries who didn't embrace the euro and have had competent, tightly knit governments, even if they are heavily taxed and socialized.

Bottom line - Europe's downturn has curbed economic recovery in this country as investors and business leaders are now more uncertain about the future and it will ultimately affect our own policies from healthcare to deficit spending to cap and trade. It would be foolish for anyone (liberal or conservative) to ignore or not acknowledge the harbinger that the European turmoil has for an overspending American government.
You've laid out the flaw in the argument that "government spending" or socialism, in and of itself, is the reason for the European collapse. One cannot simply ignore the success of the Scandinavian countries overall, who tend to be far MORE socialized than most of the rest of Europe. (Heck, when Sweden's banks had trouble over a decade ago, they actually semi-NATIONALIZED them. That's unheard of in capitalistic quarters.) From what I've been reading, I do think it has everything to do with currency and debt issues. The thing conservatives seem to forget is that reckless tax reduction can be just as bad as reckless spending. The Scandinavian countries have seemed to find a workable balance of high spending and high taxation.

To tie this back into Georgia: I just hope that our local politicians don't fall for that canard that taxes = evil and spending = evil. It's all about smart, balanced, and targeted taxes and spending. We DO need to spend on infrastructure and education. And we DO need to tax in order to make those areas work for the Atlanta metro area. I still don't understand why we aren't talking about small reasonable tax increases such as the an increase in the cigarette tax. Hopefully the penny transportation tax will be a real thing some day soon.
 
Old 06-14-2010, 06:33 PM
 
479 posts, read 699,407 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Any evidence that latinos are leaving en masse? It's quite the opposite where I live.

And yes, hundreds of thousands of Asians have moved here in the last 2 decades (not to mention all the kids they've had). Their numbers are close to half million mark now. SF this aint, but it's not old Georgia either.

Let me know how that fantasy world turns....
Two decades???? Yes, during that time MORE hundreds of thousands of caucasian americans (from alabama, tennessee, etc) and white non-americans have moved here. And fyi, white people have kids too!

Check your made-up stats again man. In 2007 (according to Wikipedia) there were 5,376,000 people in the Atlanta MSA. Asians are 4.2%. That equals 225k. You were only off by slightly more than half.

Not the "old Georgia"? Ooooh, look out. BTW, check out the woman in South Carolina of Indian decent who nearly won the republican nomination for governor. Imagine,. a "minority" who is a republican! and gets votes! Will wonders never cease!

Enjoy your fantasy while you can. When the dems get blown out in November, and then Obama goes in 2012, the question will then be: So, now, what else you got?
 
Old 06-14-2010, 06:42 PM
 
479 posts, read 699,407 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-SawDude View Post
You've laid out the flaw in the argument that "government spending" or socialism, in and of itself, is the reason for the European collapse. One cannot simply ignore the success of the Scandinavian countries overall, who tend to be far MORE socialized than most of the rest of Europe. (Heck, when Sweden's banks had trouble over a decade ago, they actually semi-NATIONALIZED them. That's unheard of in capitalistic quarters.) From what I've been reading, I do think it has everything to do with currency and debt issues. The thing conservatives seem to forget is that reckless tax reduction can be just as bad as reckless spending. The Scandinavian countries have seemed to find a workable balance of high spending and high taxation.

To tie this back into Georgia: I just hope that our local politicians don't fall for that canard that taxes = evil and spending = evil. It's all about smart, balanced, and targeted taxes and spending. We DO need to spend on infrastructure and education. And we DO need to tax in order to make those areas work for the Atlanta metro area. I still don't understand why we aren't talking about small reasonable tax increases such as the an increase in the cigarette tax. Hopefully the penny transportation tax will be a real thing some day soon.
The scandavian countries are very small and have largely homoegenuous populations. Its amazing how liberals can hold up a non-diverse, anglo/white/blond hair blue eyed culture as something to mimmick (when it suits your agenda).

The only people who like the idea of taxes are the super wealthy (who dont care or have ways of avoiding them) and the income poor who want a bigger handout. Everyone else, pretty much, hates actually paying their taxes. Go ahead, tell me how there are loads of people out there who like taxes. FYI, you can voluntarily pay more in taxes, if you like.
 
Old 06-14-2010, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,887 posts, read 17,120,503 times
Reputation: 3701
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-SawDude View Post
The biggest difference in my mind is that the Republicans didn't even pretend to make those tax-cuts "bi-partisan."
Yeah, how stupid of those Republicans to give tax breaks to the people in our country who PAY the taxes. As it happens, the so-called "Bush tax cuts" cut all of the marginal rates, so even someone making minimum wage got a cut in their rate. The more you paid, the more advantage you got from the marginal rate cuts.

What is a "bipartisan tax cut" anyway? If Democrats paid taxes, then they got a cut. If not, then there is nothing to cut. Of course we could have followed the Clinton model and give an "earned income tax credit" where we give income tax refunds to people who didn't pay anything.
 
Old 06-14-2010, 06:55 PM
 
479 posts, read 699,407 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Let me know how that fantasy world turns....
From Yahoo TODAY:


"A near-record majority of Americans believe the Democratic Party is "too liberal." That's according to a new Gallup Poll that finds 49 percent of Americans believe Democrats have moved too far left. That number is up 10 points since 2008 and just 1 point shy of the all-time record set in 1994 when Democrats lost control of congress. According to the poll, 38 percent now believe the Dems' views are "about right"—a 12 point decrease since 2008.

By comparison, 40 percent of those surveyed believe Republicans are "too conservative"—down 3 points since '08— and 41 percent believe the party's "about right." That number marks a 7 percent increase in the last two years."

I like my fantasy world. It seems so....real....
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