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Old 02-24-2009, 07:09 AM
 
281 posts, read 542,624 times
Reputation: 198

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Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Neill,

I have enjoyed your posts since joining this forum. Most of the time I have been in agreement with you on various issues. I do visit the Atlanta page most even tho I currently reside in TX due to complications from a divorce that I did not seek and I want to be near my children. One day I will return to Georgia, so the goings on of my home state are still of importance to me.

I do not understand your attitude toward me on this thread. I have stated very clearly my desire for a day off that is held in tandem by all Americans one day a week and do not have the slightest care whether you choose to observe it religiously or not. My Christian life is a 24/7 experience, I don't need Sunday to be a Christian.

I am not a tea totaller but I don't regularly consume alcohol so that is not my issue. I have consumed alcohol on a Sunday. Jesus' first public miracle was turning water into wine at wedding celebration, so my idea of biblically based Christianity is not up in arms about alcohol consumption.

My issue is that the anti Christian mindset that twists the intent of the founding fathers to abolish anything that has a Christian root in our society is damaging to the whole of our country. You have been given freedom to express your religious or non religious expression in whatever way you choose. That is what set America apart from Europe as the founding fathers gave people like you who claim atheism a right to abide and live and prosper in this country without governmental threats on your well being. The Europe that our forefathers came from did not have this type of freedom for all.

However, the founding fathers were Christian by and large. The society was Christian by and large. Sunday as the main day of worship for most Christians (Adventists aside) was set apart by blue laws for the Christian majority. The benefit for those not worshipping that day was a day off to do as they please. Show me one example of government forcing someone of a non religious persuasion to worship at any point in our history. I am sure there are examples of society at large putting pressure on individuals somewhere in our past, but show me the federal or state government punishing someone who did not attend church.

My personal gripe with the continual eroding of blue laws was stated in an earlier post. I am at an age and because of my divorce in a place where my employment options have been limited. I have found moderate success in automobile sales. Thankfully, here in Texas, there is a remnant of the blue laws still on the books in that automobile dealerships are closed on Sunday. With the nature of the automobile business, if this were not so, we would be required to work Sunday. I am required to work bell to bell every Saturday as it is. If Sunday were not on the laws here, I would be required to work the same on Sundays. Its the nature of the beast.

The only other holidays where my dealership is closed is Thanksgiving day and Chistmas day. If Christmas falls on a Sunday, there is no other day given. The thinking is that so many other business and places of employment are closed that more people are free to come in and make a purchase.

I get to be with my children on weekends by my divorce decree. Because of my Saturday work schedule, I do not get to pick them up until very late on Saturday.

When I see threads like this that attack another vestige of the blue laws, I see the anti Christian crowd like you come with your philosophical arguments that because it has its roots in Christianity, it should be abolished. Then I fear the fed govt and ACLU storming into Texas and demanding that the laws on the books that keeps my dealership closed on Sunday be thrown out and then my dealership requiring me to work bell to bell Saturday and Sunday and then take a Wednesday off.

A previous post-er (who assumed I sold alcohol) said get another job. That is a trite statement to make in an economy like this to anyone. To summarize all I have stated in this thread and say that I am just against anyone drinking alcohol on Sunday because I am a Christian is even more trite and degrading.

I don't give a flip if you buy alcohol on Sunday Neill. If it meant that much to you and I still lived in Marietta I would go stock up on the dang stuff and give you a key to my house and say come in any Sunday while I am at church and get whatever you want to fill your sudden urge that you couldn't plan for one day earlier.

From other posts I have read of yours I am surprised at the lack of class and thought with which you have responded to me here.[/quo
Remind me again about how Neil being able to buy a beer on Sunday would hamper your ability to go to church? Is your car dealership thinking about selling beer on Sunday morning if the law changes(may not be a bad idea in this economy!)? And I told you to get another job only if you worked at a liquor store that may open on Sunday if the law changed.
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:20 AM
 
969 posts, read 2,657,828 times
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^ Thought you weren't going to post on this thread anymore.......
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:50 AM
 
281 posts, read 542,624 times
Reputation: 198
I said someone had to answer the following question:
Why should I not be allowed to go to Kroger on Sunday and buy a beer? No reference to religion allowed.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:04 AM
 
Location: sowf jawja
1,940 posts, read 8,409,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvez View Post
I said someone had to answer the following question:
Why should I not be allowed to go to Kroger on Sunday and buy a beer? No reference to religion allowed.
well in that case. . . . .

there's no reason other than years and years ago, religious leaders and politicians decided to make it illegal.


if you want my honest opinion, i don't care if you can buy it or not. people that want to drink on sunday are going to do it. I drink (in moderation) and I will drink on sundays.

furthermore, i'm not really an advocate of making laws just because "the Bible said so", because we always pick and choose which ones we want to enforce. Either go all the way or not at all.

While this country was founded by Christians, its purpose was for religious freedoms.

That said, although this sounds somewhat contradictory, I don't mind having laws that are Bible based because this is a Christian country. Any other religion has the right to worship here free of persecution; that does not mean we should change the laws for their behalf alone.
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Old 02-26-2009, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,232,131 times
Reputation: 3576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Neill,

I have enjoyed your posts since joining this forum. Most of the time I have been in agreement with you on various issues. I do visit the Atlanta page most even tho I currently reside in TX due to complications from a divorce that I did not seek and I want to be near my children. One day I will return to Georgia, so the goings on of my home state are still of importance to me.

I do not understand your attitude toward me on this thread. I have stated very clearly my desire for a day off that is held in tandem by all Americans one day a week and do not have the slightest care whether you choose to observe it religiously or not. My Christian life is a 24/7 experience, I don't need Sunday to be a Christian.

I am not a tea totaller but I don't regularly consume alcohol so that is not my issue. I have consumed alcohol on a Sunday. Jesus' first public miracle was turning water into wine at wedding celebration, so my idea of biblically based Christianity is not up in arms about alcohol consumption.

My issue is that the anti Christian mindset that twists the intent of the founding fathers to abolish anything that has a Christian root in our society is damaging to the whole of our country. You have been given freedom to express your religious or non religious expression in whatever way you choose. That is what set America apart from Europe as the founding fathers gave people like you who claim atheism a right to abide and live and prosper in this country without governmental threats on your well being. The Europe that our forefathers came from did not have this type of freedom for all.

However, the founding fathers were Christian by and large. The society was Christian by and large. Sunday as the main day of worship for most Christians (Adventists aside) was set apart by blue laws for the Christian majority. The benefit for those not worshipping that day was a day off to do as they please. Show me one example of government forcing someone of a non religious persuasion to worship at any point in our history. I am sure there are examples of society at large putting pressure on individuals somewhere in our past, but show me the federal or state government punishing someone who did not attend church.

My personal gripe with the continual eroding of blue laws was stated in an earlier post. I am at an age and because of my divorce in a place where my employment options have been limited. I have found moderate success in automobile sales. Thankfully, here in Texas, there is a remnant of the blue laws still on the books in that automobile dealerships are closed on Sunday. With the nature of the automobile business, if this were not so, we would be required to work Sunday. I am required to work bell to bell every Saturday as it is. If Sunday were not on the laws here, I would be required to work the same on Sundays. Its the nature of the beast.

The only other holidays where my dealership is closed is Thanksgiving day and Chistmas day. If Christmas falls on a Sunday, there is no other day given. The thinking is that so many other business and places of employment are closed that more people are free to come in and make a purchase.

I get to be with my children on weekends by my divorce decree. Because of my Saturday work schedule, I do not get to pick them up until very late on Saturday.

When I see threads like this that attack another vestige of the blue laws, I see the anti Christian crowd like you come with your philosophical arguments that because it has its roots in Christianity, it should be abolished. Then I fear the fed govt and ACLU storming into Texas and demanding that the laws on the books that keeps my dealership closed on Sunday be thrown out and then my dealership requiring me to work bell to bell Saturday and Sunday and then take a Wednesday off.

A previous post-er (who assumed I sold alcohol) said get another job. That is a trite statement to make in an economy like this to anyone. To summarize all I have stated in this thread and say that I am just against anyone drinking alcohol on Sunday because I am a Christian is even more trite and degrading.

I don't give a flip if you buy alcohol on Sunday Neill. If it meant that much to you and I still lived in Marietta I would go stock up on the dang stuff and give you a key to my house and say come in any Sunday while I am at church and get whatever you want to fill your sudden urge that you couldn't plan for one day earlier.

From other posts I have read of yours I am surprised at the lack of class and thought with which you have responded to me here.

Sorry you choose to take the opinions and posts here personally. I'm upset if I've offended you, but not sorry regarding anything I've said and standby it all. Nothing I've said has been "anti-religion" but rather "pro-freedom." I don't oppose your right to practice your religion, but rather anyone's right to choose the tenants of their religion to be public policy. There is a HUGE difference that you seem to be unable or unwilling to see and acknowledge.

The fundamental principle here that seems to be lost on most religious people is that religion is a personal choice. Religion is something that some people choose to be a part of their lives. Even within those people who choose to worship and be religious, there are many different sects and religions. You have Christians, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus, Shintos, and more that I haven't mentioned. Even within the Christian religion you have various Protestant denominations in addition to many Catholics. Each of these religions and denominations has their own rules, dogma, beliefs, and guidelines for their members. The government should play no rule in supporting or favoring one of these over any other. Each can practice their own religion, but the government cannot establish one as the official religion. That's why and how our country was founded.

Again, I don't drink much and it's not about "planning." It's about the government staying out of things where it shouldn't be, not favoring anyone's religious beliefs and establishing laws to enforce them, and being neutral on religion. It's about my right to buy booze on Sunday if I choose to do so, without anyone's religion that I don't subscribe to interfering with that choice to purchase.

I'm sorry if you don't agree, and you're free to disagree, but don't take it personally. It's not about you, but if you try to defend the indefensible, I will take the opportunity to disagree vigorously with you here. If you choose to call that "classless" then so be it. I'm not at all concerned. Southerners tend to make religion such an overwhelming part of their lives that they really can't see the forest for the trees sometimes or understand that other people in the country and world don't share their great fervor for Jesus and religion.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,059 posts, read 10,578,781 times
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Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Sorry you choose to take the opinions and posts here personally. I'm upset if I've offended you, but not sorry regarding anything I've said and standby it all. Nothing I've said has been "anti-religion" but rather "pro-freedom." I don't oppose your right to practice your religion, but rather anyone's right to choose the tenants of their religion to be public policy. There is a HUGE difference that you seem to be unable or unwilling to see and acknowledge.

The fundamental principle here that seems to be lost on most religious people is that religion is a personal choice. Religion is something that some people choose to be a part of their lives. Even within those people who choose to worship and be religious, there are many different sects and religions. You have Christians, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus, Shintos, and more that I haven't mentioned. Even within the Christian religion you have various Protestant denominations in addition to many Catholics. Each of these religions and denominations has their own rules, dogma, beliefs, and guidelines for their members. The government should play no rule in supporting or favoring one of these over any other. Each can practice their own religion, but the government cannot establish one as the official religion. That's why and how our country was founded.

Again, I don't drink much and it's not about "planning." It's about the government staying out of things where it shouldn't be, not favoring anyone's religious beliefs and establishing laws to enforce them, and being neutral on religion. It's about my right to buy booze on Sunday if I choose to do so, without anyone's religion that I don't subscribe to interfering with that choice to purchase.

I'm sorry if you don't agree, and you're free to disagree, but don't take it personally. It's not about you, but if you try to defend the indefensible, I will take the opportunity to disagree vigorously with you here. If you choose to call that "classless" then so be it. I'm not at all concerned. Southerners tend to make religion such an overwhelming part of their lives that they really can't see the forest for the trees sometimes or understand that other people in the country and world don't share their great fervor for Jesus and religion.
My main point is hard to get across I guess. A five day work week is seen as ideal in America. People love their two day weekend. Why do we have this two day weekend? Religion.

This goes back to the book of Genesis, right to the very first with the creation account. God spent six days creating the earth then rested on the 7th (the number 7 has spiritual significance throughout scripture, but that is another subject, gotta keep focused here.....). The seventh day was then set aside by the Hebrew nation as a day of rest and religious observance. Chrisitanity (which grew out of Judaism) moved to Sunday as their day of observance because of Christ rising from the grave early on a Sunday.

As America was founded primarily by Christians who held Sunday special, but with special regards to its Judeo heritage which holds Saturday special, our weekend was born. Our schools are built on this schedule, traditional jobs (not retail) are built on this schedule. The weekend that all Americans love is a direct result of religious beliefs.

Your argument (and others here) is that religious institutions should have no intrusion in the greater society. If that is so, the weekend needs to be done away with entirely.

Your freedom to buy whatever you want whenever you want directly impinges on anothers work schedule. This kind of argument for freedom is very self centered. Those that have a set M-F schedule do not appreciate those that are forced to work weekends. The "get another job then" arguments are demeaning to say the least.

I take it personally because this argument does effect me and my work schedule. As I mentioned before, if those of you that are activists with this argument (cough, cough, ACLU, cough, cough) will take this alcohol debate and come in and force states or local governments to take any vestige of blue laws away, then the car industry will not care about any of its workers (retail side at least) and force its dealerships to be open on Sundays. I get an off day during the week now, but no one at my dealership on the sales side gets anytime off on Saturday, we are all there on Saturday from open till close at 9PM. I have missed countless activities of my kids, dances, games, etc as well as friends weddings, church retreats, etc, because it has to be a death of an immediate loved one to be off on a Saturday.

This will be mirrored on Sunday. This argument proposed on this thread has a direct consequence on me personally so I take it personally. It befuddles me that you can't see that.

Read back thru this thread. The question is posed time and again "I can't buy alcohol because of Christianity, prove otherwise." The point made in this question is Christianity shouldn't impose itself on our society so any law that has a connection with Christian observance should be done away with.

My point is that those of you making this argument are 1)promoting your personal "freedom" without taking into account that it effects other people's freedoms and 2) picking and choosing the parts of these laws that have a supposed restriction on your "freedom" while disregarding the side benefits they have allowed you, i.e. a two day weekend.
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:23 PM
 
281 posts, read 542,624 times
Reputation: 198
If all blue laws are repealed, remind me again of how the government is restricting your rights in any way?

Any employer has the right to ask you to work anytime they want you to. You have the right to refuse. They have the right to fire you if you choose not to. Government is not involved in any way with this. Sorry, but if you want to have a job sometimes you have to work when you don't want to. Can a policeman refuse to work on Sunday? Maybe the criminals will agree to take it off. I work weekends because my job requires it. Should I ask Sonny to pass a law that says I can't work on the weekend.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,232,131 times
Reputation: 3576
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Your argument (and others here) is that religious institutions should have no intrusion in the greater society.
Nope...nope...nope...nope (bangs head against wall)

My argument is that GOVERNMENT has no business passing LAWS that establish or promote one religion or their beliefs over any others. Government also has no business prohibiting individuals from exercise of religion, but that exercise should be private and not influence laws passed by government.

I never mentioned anything about "religious institutions" or "society." Religion has many influences on society, and that's fine, provided that GOVERNMENT stays neutral in official policy. Worship, stay home on the weekend, PTL however you want, just do it without the power of GOVERNMENT compelling me to do the same.

Why is this such a hard point to make? Let me quote the 1st amendment to the US Constitution since it's very clear and unambiguous.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
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Old 02-26-2009, 08:38 PM
 
3,671 posts, read 4,158,014 times
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Give up SaintMarks. No matter how you try to explain it with these on the board, they still don't get it. Without religious influence on laws, there is no 5-day work week. It automatically expands to 6 and 7.

They want to overlook the broad benefits and trade it for a six pack. These same people may understand why you would want to word laws that make it difficult to add billboards along the interstate, yet they don't seem to "get" this quality-of-life issue.
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,232,131 times
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Originally Posted by irishvanguard View Post
Without religious influence on laws, there is no 5-day work week. It automatically expands to 6 and 7.
That's complete nonsense. Eastern Europe was a godless society under communism, and Asian countries like China are not Christian and not religious. Why didn't/don't they have a 7 day work week?

Of course let's not even discuss the fact that we've had a 6 or even 7 day work week here in the US for many years. The reason we didn't years ago was religion. That was the whole point. It would actually do our kids some good to go to school 6 days a week. Of course that's a fiscal impossibility and the teacher's union would never go for it.
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