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Old 02-26-2009, 09:56 PM
 
Location: sowf jawja
1,940 posts, read 8,412,428 times
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you people do realize that our current work schedules and associated labor laws are a result of labor unions, and not religion, right?
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,059 posts, read 10,585,018 times
Reputation: 6177
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishvanguard View Post
Give up SaintMarks. No matter how you try to explain it with these on the board, they still don't get it. Without religious influence on laws, there is no 5-day work week. It automatically expands to 6 and 7.

They want to overlook the broad benefits and trade it for a six pack. These same people may understand why you would want to word laws that make it difficult to add billboards along the interstate, yet they don't seem to "get" this quality-of-life issue.
Thank you kind sir (or ma'am), nice to have a little affirmation that I am not alone in this thought process.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,059 posts, read 10,585,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Nope...nope...nope...nope (bangs head against wall)

My argument is that GOVERNMENT has no business passing LAWS that establish or promote one religion or their beliefs over any others. Government also has no business prohibiting individuals from exercise of religion, but that exercise should be private and not influence laws passed by government.

I never mentioned anything about "religious institutions" or "society." Religion has many influences on society, and that's fine, provided that GOVERNMENT stays neutral in official policy. Worship, stay home on the weekend, PTL however you want, just do it without the power of GOVERNMENT compelling me to do the same.

Why is this such a hard point to make? Let me quote the 1st amendment to the US Constitution since it's very clear and unambiguous.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Show me the clear line where a nation's government and laws and the society therein are drawn. They are tightly intewoven.

The first amendment was written as such so there would be NO official state religion as European nations had at that time and still have unto this day. There is no Church of Ameica as there is a Church of England. The first amendment being used to keep nativity scenes out of town squares, the Ten Commandments out of courthouses, removal of invocations at football games or in schools and Sunday blue laws abolished was not the intent of the framers, it was to keep one organized Denomination (Roman Catholic, Church of England, Lutheran, etc) from being designatied as the official state church.

The same freedoms give rise for any and all religions and no religion to be practiced by individuals. That does not mean that this still is not a Christian nation.

Congress and the Senate have Christian chaplains and prayers. Presidents as well as witnesses in courts swear in on bibles. In God We Trust is on our currency. This is a Christian nation, always has been. The first amendment was worded as such NOT to keep Christianity out of our government, but to keep the government out of Christianity.
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,236,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Congress and the Senate have Christian chaplains and prayers. Presidents as well as witnesses in courts swear in on bibles. In God We Trust is on our currency.
In God We Trust was officially added to currency in the 1950s (although it had been around for about 100 years) as was the reference to "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. They were added by McCarthy era conservatives as a snub to communism and the USSR. I personally think they have no place in either situation, and there is no need for a prayer in Congress. It's a useless throwback.

I have nothing against people swearing on the Bible if that means something to them. Again, freedom from Government establishment of laws doesn't mean that all reference to religion is wiped away and we all become secular. Having personal traditions that are based in religion aren't a problem unless you force them on non believers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
This is a Christian nation, always has been.
Nope...sorry. This has been a country where the majority of the population has been Christian. The two are not the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
The first amendment was worded as such NOT to keep Christianity out of our government, but to keep the government out of Christianity.
Read it again...read history. Many of the people who came here were looking for freedom from government interference in religion. They happened to be Christians, but they understood why government interference was a bad thing.

Today we have many religions and many atheists in this state and country. Christianity is NOT the only religion, and it's NOT the "one true" religion. It's merely the religion that's practiced by a majority of people.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,059 posts, read 10,585,018 times
Reputation: 6177
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
In God We Trust was officially added to currency in the 1950s (although it had been around for about 100 years) as was the reference to "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. They were added by McCarthy era conservatives as a snub to communism and the USSR. I personally think they have no place in either situation, and there is no need for a prayer in Congress. It's a useless throwback.

I have nothing against people swearing on the Bible if that means something to them. Again, freedom from Government establishment of laws doesn't mean that all reference to religion is wiped away and we all become secular. Having personal traditions that are based in religion aren't a problem unless you force them on non believers.



Nope...sorry. This has been a country where the majority of the population has been Christian. The two are not the same.



Read it again...read history. Many of the people who came here were looking for freedom from government interference in religion. They happened to be Christians, but they understood why government interference was a bad thing.

Today we have many religions and many atheists in this state and country. Christianity is NOT the only religion, and it's NOT the "one true" religion. It's merely the religion that's practiced by a majority of people.
I think this is boiling down to semantics. The majority were Christian then, the majority are Christian now. The majority define what a nation is. I said nothing about the "one true religion" and I stated that government interference was a bad thing and why the first amendment was stated as such. You take the inverse as true, that Christianity should in no way influence government. I say the constitution was worded as such that the inverse is NOT so.
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,236,053 times
Reputation: 3576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
I think this is boiling down to semantics. The majority were Christian then, the majority are Christian now. The majority define what a nation is. I said nothing about the "one true religion" and I stated that government interference was a bad thing and why the first amendment was stated as such. You take the inverse as true, that Christianity should in no way influence government. I say the constitution was worded as such that the inverse is NOT so.
Semantics are important in things like laws and Constitutions. Meanings and intent are also important.

BTW...being a majority doesn't "define what they nation is." You've missed the whole concept of the American Republic. Years of American history have just flown right over your head.

The founding fathers explicity set up a system where a 50% + 1 majority DOES NOT control what takes place. In fact, if you look at the Bill of Rights, it's designed to protect the minority (not talking about racial minority). The whole premise was to guarantee the rights of those who are NOT in the majority and to prevent the majority from running roughshod over the minority. Throughout the Constitution we have checks and balances, combined with super majorities, and the concept of the Electoral College and original election of US Senators by state legislatures and not popular vote.

This country was founded upon the idea of "I hate your point of view, but I'll fight until death to defend your right to say it." That's why we let the Nazis march in Skokie in the 70s. We don't need to be reminded of what happens when a corrupt government enforces majority will on its citizens and oppresses the minority. That was tried here in Georgia and throughout the south for many years. In your mind, using the same logic, are we a "white country" too?
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