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Old 04-24-2017, 07:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
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This is on top of a study a few years back showing that Grand Rapids is one of the worst cities economically for African Americans.

GR is the tale of two cities and two different realities, to paraphrase a study from years ago, one black, one white, separate and unequal.

I was visiting GR over the Easter Weekend and was amazed by the level of gentrification going on. Gentrification is pushing south from Wealthy towards Franklin Street. The inner SE side has been Grand Rapids "Harlem" since the 70's. It has the cheapest rents in the city and with rising housing values and rents in other parts of the city......this will push out long time residents as rents and property values rise due to increase demand. People will be pushed into low income housing in Kentwood and Wyoming, while Grand Rapids becomes a mecca for hipsters and the like.

I have a six figure income. I am college educated. I am a professional. I have a family. I also have an elderly parent living in GR and with all the positive news about growth and economics.....I still cannot see myself moving back there and the main reason is that it is NOT a place that is good for black people. All the growth and things going on in GR seems disconnected from the black population....who just appear to be "in the way".

I give GR props all the time. I am a big Michigan proponent and booster. All things Michigan, even though I know longer live in the state. I guess that is hypocrisy because I voted with my feet and got out of the state to make a better life for myself. The area is just too conservative/alt-right, notwithstanding GR being blue.
Obiviously I'll never know what it's like to have this fear although I can recognize it's there. I don't know if recognizing it even does any good. I'd like to be part of a solution, but I don't know what that means. I am pretty sure this study was commissioned by the city in order to understand the state of minority conditions and relations in the city. City hall is also making a big push to raise the profile of minorities in the city and make it more inclusionary. Do you think these are good things? Or do you think it's just too little too late?
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:52 PM
 
13,288 posts, read 7,836,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
Obiviously I'll never know what it's like to have this fear although I can recognize it's there. I don't know if recognizing it even does any good. I'd like to be part of a solution, but I don't know what that means. I am pretty sure this study was commissioned by the city in order to understand the state of minority conditions and relations in the city. City hall is also making a big push to raise the profile of minorities in the city and make it more inclusionary. Do you think these are good things? Or do you think it's just too little too late?
We are talking about a stain in the carpet of America that will not come out with the normal cleaning of the the whole carpet. Its a concentrated stain that needs a concentrated targeted effort to remove. That stain is the stain of racial oppression. The problem is that America just wants to do the regular cleaning and is averse to the extra time, effort and expense associated with trying to remove the stain. The stain manifest as socioeconomic racial inequality, but others don't actually feel that is a stain, the result of the spilling of centuries of racial oppression, but rather HOW THE CARPET IS MADE. In other words, its natural that the carpet does not look uniform because the races are not naturally uniform in what they are innately capable of achieving.

If you are asking the question "what can I do to be part of the solution", you are already part of the solution by not being part of the problem. Not being able to empathize is no reason not to RESPECT the cries of someone. Black cries are usually seen as whining, an excuse, wanting something for nothing, a tired old fallacy myth meant to deflect from the root cause, as they see it, which is innate dysfunction caused by our own collective racial inferiority. I mean, how many people actually believe that blacks disproportionately dominate certain sports because "we work harder at those sports"? No, many people think its innate ability. By the same reasoning, black disproportionate crime, poverty, lower test scores...many believe that is innate too....and not the consequence of an unfair playing field or society.

I do not know if there can be a solution as long as the belief of racial superiority and inferiority is alive and well. When people reject all the external reason for socioeconomic racial inequality, they are implicitly saying that it is internal. I don't think it can be solved at the local level either. It has to be effort led nationally, because although it may differ in degrees....the problem is ubiquitous. Blacks moved to Michigan in the "great migration" from the south. They disproportionately became employed in manufacturing as many migrated from the south as former agricultural workers with little education. Factories and unions was a big reason for the increase in black standards of living from the 40's to through 70's. Michigan manufacturing started getting hit hard in the 80's.....and given that blacks were disproportionately employed in that sector.....blacks were disproportionately impacted and not prepared for the new economy. People expected to work where their parents worked, at GM, Steel Case and other large manufacturers that provided a respectable living. When those jobs dried up.......many people became structurally unemployed and crime, drug dealing and things like that became more a way out, leading to increased crime and arrest.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-24-2017 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 04-25-2017, 07:30 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
3,112 posts, read 5,679,450 times
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Like mjlo, I can't fully understand. I can only try to empathize. I will say that I recognize there is a race inequality issue in GR and underlying racism that is maybe worse than other cities of similar size elsewhere. Take Lansing, for example... that city seems less segregated with more middle class blacks. Of course, the issue exists everywhere, just to different degrees. In a lot of ways the South seems to be less segregated these days with more and better opportunities for blacks, which is strange considering our country's history. GR is a city on the rise but the success does not seem to be shared by the black community in GR for the most part. I can't argue with that.
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:23 AM
 
13,288 posts, read 7,836,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
Like mjlo, I can't fully understand. I can only try to empathize. I will say that I recognize there is a race inequality issue in GR and underlying racism that is maybe worse than other cities of similar size elsewhere. Take Lansing, for example... that city seems less segregated with more middle class blacks. Of course, the issue exists everywhere, just to different degrees. In a lot of ways the South seems to be less segregated these days with more and better opportunities for blacks, which is strange considering our country's history. GR is a city on the rise but the success does not seem to be shared by the black community in GR for the most part. I can't argue with that.
A door left open for someone to come lift you up is a door left open for someone to come put you down. The black community cannot rely on any other community of peoples to lift us up because that opens the community up to being put down and controlled by forces that are not always benevolent. An entity has to be the main source of their well being, with the understanding that everyone needs some help, the main efforts must come from the entity. In capitalistic America, however, money and legislation is how you socially engineer change of this scale.

I think its more efficient and effective, for the goal of promoting racial equality, if whites work inwardly among themselves, with honesty, regarding beliefs of racial superiority and inferiority. Most people who are inflicted with this belief do not even recognize it in themselves. It lives in the subconscious and is repressed by he conscious that seeks not to see or have itself seen in a negative light. However, it comes out indirectly and implicitly in debates.....or in split second type decisions by the police, where the conscious mind is subdued and the subconscious takes over.

Similarly, black people need to work inwardly to lift up black people. Black people have been conditioned, over 300 years, to see ourselves the way that the larger society sees us. If you tell a lie enough time, people start to believe it is true. If the "lie" is what the society truly believes, then society creates a self fulfilling prophecy by treating an entity differently to the degree that the entity reacts in a way that confirms the beliefs. When society sees a group as inferior, it does not give them the same opportunities and not giving them the same opportunities manifest in an inferior outcome which in turn validates the original belief of their inferiority.

This video is by no means a controlled experiment, but it does reflect the overall reality of how blacks have been conditioned to see themselves. Kids, I think, are more honest because they don't know saying certain things are politically incorrect or socially not acceptable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpUyB2xgTM

Black people really need a period of positive deprogramming to offset how society has programmed our reality and how we see ourselves. However, the larger society has always frowned against such deprogramming. The era of the 60's and 70's was an era of slogans like "black power" and "black is beautiful" and songs like "
to be young gifted and black". These were attempts to undo the programming of black inferiority. People hearing those songs today would say that they are racist. Any attempt at blacks to lift themselves up is viewed as racist or reverse racism by the larger society. Its like having a broken leg that cannot be treated because the other leg complains about why it cannot get special treatment too. As a result of this......inner unity among blacks is at an all time low and which is why we are stuck in the mud....if not going backwards. Now songs are about btchs, n's and hoes and killing each other....and sells have crossed over and are through the roof.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-25-2017 at 08:49 AM..
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Old 04-27-2017, 04:30 PM
 
23 posts, read 19,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
A door left open for someone to come lift you up is a door left open for someone to come put you down. The black community cannot rely on any other community of peoples to lift us up because that opens the community up to being put down and controlled by forces that are not always benevolent. An entity has to be the main source of their well being, with the understanding that everyone needs some help, the main efforts must come from the entity. In capitalistic America, however, money and legislation is how you socially engineer change of this scale.

I think its more efficient and effective, for the goal of promoting racial equality, if whites work inwardly among themselves, with honesty, regarding beliefs of racial superiority and inferiority. Most people who are inflicted with this belief do not even recognize it in themselves. It lives in the subconscious and is repressed by he conscious that seeks not to see or have itself seen in a negative light. However, it comes out indirectly and implicitly in debates.....or in split second type decisions by the police, where the conscious mind is subdued and the subconscious takes over.

Similarly, black people need to work inwardly to lift up black people. Black people have been conditioned, over 300 years, to see ourselves the way that the larger society sees us. If you tell a lie enough time, people start to believe it is true. If the "lie" is what the society truly believes, then society creates a self fulfilling prophecy by treating an entity differently to the degree that the entity reacts in a way that confirms the beliefs. When society sees a group as inferior, it does not give them the same opportunities and not giving them the same opportunities manifest in an inferior outcome which in turn validates the original belief of their inferiority.
It's a problem that isn't going away anytime soon. And this after the abolition of slavery 150 years ago. It's unfortunate, and the intractability of the problem has some African Americans talking about the need to self-segregate for the betterment of the race. (Consider Tulsa's Black Wall Street of the early 20th century and more modest examples.)

Although I bemoan the idea of self-segregation, I can understand how some might want to get away from "the other" due to America's sad history of racism. I'm black and originally from West Michigan; and when I moved to a majority-black neighborhood in DC, I must admit I felt somewhat empowered if only because everyone around looked like me.

The problem is that this is the 21st century and we're all supposed to be getting along. Right? Then again, maybe Star Trek gets it wrong. Maybe the future will find the different races resentful and suspicious in their separate enclaves instead of as one big, happy family. Of course, I hope this isn't the case.
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Old 04-28-2017, 04:14 AM
 
Location: S-E Michigan
3,066 posts, read 4,119,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
.....I still cannot see myself moving back there and the main reason is that it is NOT a place that is good for black people. All the growth and things going on in GR seems disconnected from the black population....who just appear to be "in the way". ..........
I am a late middle aged white guy and I picked up on the same feelings as you - years ago. Not a great place to live unless you are of Dutch ancestry or look as if you might be. Racial intolerance is very much right in your face. No attempt by many residents to mask these feelings.
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:49 AM
 
13,288 posts, read 7,836,593 times
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Originally Posted by antiwhatever View Post
It's a problem that isn't going away anytime soon. And this after the abolition of slavery 150 years ago. It's unfortunate, and the intractability of the problem has some African Americans talking about the need to self-segregate for the betterment of the race. (Consider Tulsa's Black Wall Street of the early 20th century and more modest examples.)

Although I bemoan the idea of self-segregation, I can understand how some might want to get away from "the other" due to America's sad history of racism. I'm black and originally from West Michigan; and when I moved to a majority-black neighborhood in DC, I must admit I felt somewhat empowered if only because everyone around looked like me.

The problem is that this is the 21st century and we're all supposed to be getting along. Right? Then again, maybe Star Trek gets it wrong. Maybe the future will find the different races resentful and suspicious in their separate enclaves instead of as one big, happy family. Of course, I hope this isn't the case.
I do not support physical segregation, as a solution, as much as I support mental unification. I believe that one should simply be of the MINDSET of black consciousness and uplift. I can remember a time that if you moved out to the suburbs....that was considered "selling out". I am not the arbitrator, nor do I want to be, of what constitutes not selling out or the proper mindset and I do not look at myself as a template for how we should behave. I am not "holier than thou" in that respect. I just recognize or believe that this is the path to collective uplift.

Blacks are in the position we are in, collectively, as a result of TARGETING. Society AIMED at blacks in a negative way, for centuries. Hence, the problem is not going to be REVERSED or REPAIRED absent equal and opposite TARGETING and AIMING. Historical racism took the approach of promoting the former while modern racism takes the approach of preventing the latter. In other words, historical racism worked to target blacks to put blacks down while modern racism works to keep blacks from being targeted, hence, inhibiting our efforts to get upright. Ergo, the good leg will not let the broken leg get special targeted treatment because its discrimination. If the good leg cannot get the same special treatment, the bad leg should not be able to get it.

If and when black people come up with a plan, people or programs aimed to uplift black people......they get attacked by the larger society. Invariably, someone is going to challenge the legality of such acts and ask "why cannot whites do that for white people"? There was a plan, about 20 years ago, to create a district in Detroit called "Africa Town", where the city of Detroit would direct monies to help African American businesses and such, by creating a district of African/black owned businesses. Of course, that was attacked as racially discriminatory. The truth is.....THAT IT WAS. However, again, you cannot repair damage unless you make a targeted, aimed effort to repair it....Ergo....discriminate. You have got to target the broken leg in a way that you don't target the leg that is healthy. You have to discriminate. You cannot treat both legs the same if you are trying to make them equal when they are not.

Every black person or group that aims at black people.....is attacked. Jesse Jackson. Check. Al Sharpton. Check. BLack lives matter. Check. Of course, these individuals and groups are not perfect and the black community overall did not elect any of them to their roles nor does or have the black community EVER been led by them. They have their flaws, but it is not really their flaws that leads society to attack them......but rather.....its THEIR TARGET AND AIM that angers society. Society does not like the slogan "Black Lives Matter" or that Jesse and Al seek to defend BLACKS from racism. Again, societies continued ignorance and or racism works to prevent aiming or targeting blackness, because whites are not allowed to do it for whites. To hell with the FACTS of the problems facing blacks that are not faced to the same degree or kinds as whites.

That is the conundrum. Laws that were created to help prevent people and society from putting us down due to our race are now being used by people and society to help keep us from being targeted for uplift and repair. Thus, we remain is a permanent state of disrepair.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-28-2017 at 07:26 AM..
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:50 PM
 
Location: 78745
3,405 posts, read 2,561,482 times
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Could it be that one of the reasons blacks are pulled over by the cops at a disproportionate rate is not necessarily because of race, but because a good portion of the crimes in the city happens in a black area of town so there will already be more cops in that area to witness minor violations such as somebody breaking the speed limit or run a red light or spot a vehicle with a brake light out or a messed up license plate.
...Whereas in an area of town that has very little crime, there's not that much reason for cops to spend a whole lot of time in that area.

From my own experience, I can spend an entire day in one of the safest sections of the city and maybe see one or two police patrol cars, if that many all day. On days when I have to drive through a crime ridden neighborhood, it's not unusual to see 4 or 5 police patrol cars cruising around in a time span of maybe 15 minutes.
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Old 04-28-2017, 09:29 PM
 
13,288 posts, read 7,836,593 times
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Originally Posted by Ivory Lee Spurlock View Post
Could it be that one of the reasons blacks are pulled over by the cops at a disproportionate rate is not necessarily because of race, but because a good portion of the crimes in the city happens in a black area of town so there will already be more cops in that area to witness minor violations such as somebody breaking the speed limit or run a red light or spot a vehicle with a brake light out or a messed up license plate.
...Whereas in an area of town that has very little crime, there's not that much reason for cops to spend a whole lot of time in that area.

From my own experience, I can spend an entire day in one of the safest sections of the city and maybe see one or two police patrol cars, if that many all day. On days when I have to drive through a crime ridden neighborhood, it's not unusual to see 4 or 5 police patrol cars cruising around in a time span of maybe 15 minutes.
You say "could it be ONE OF the reasons......and NOT RACE". Are you saying that there are many reasons, NONE of which are Race?

Did you research the study to see their methodology? If you did not, why not (selection bias?).

Why would you think YOU can think of that scenario while educated professionals who specialize in doing studies and controlling for such variables......did not consider that?

In fact, one of the worst areas/intersections where they compiled data was on the NW side of town, which is not a black neighborhood.

It seems to me that many people are hell bent on not accepting the reality that race does matter. I mean, there are tons of studies, surveys, etc, that reveals that racism is still very prevalent in this nation. The irony is that many of the same people who say that they recognize that racism exist are often the same people who try to dismiss or exempt racism from being an explanation in situations like this. I mean, if racism exists....then it manifest itself. That is just common sense.

I think many people do not see racism because they really are not using the proper definition of racism. If a person thinks racism is synonymous with hate and is based on disliking, then they do not know what the root of racism is. Racism is simply the belief that race plays a major role in performance and and outcomes. People assume racism is always about malicious intent...when its not.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-28-2017 at 09:43 PM..
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