Liberals in Holland (Grand Rapids, Rockford: transfer, places to live, shop)
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My husband and I visited Holland for a few hours yesterday. The big reason that we wanted to be in Holland is Lake Michigan. We thought that it would be great to live within walking distance of the lake and beach. However, after driving around quite a bit in the city and on the north side (I think were were in Holland township), it looks like most of the beach access is private. There are the city and state parks, but we would most likely have to drive there.
Also, we think that Holland might just be too small for us. It's a nice town, but we're not going to focus on Holland for right now.
There's ample public access, maybe you just need someone who knows the area to show you around?
We ride our bikes to the beach whenever we visit family in Holland. It's easy to get to, easy to access and essentially "free" (or at least ultra-low-cost) even north of town in Park Township.
I've always liked the sidewalk/bike-paths that Holland makes available. I know full-speed, spandex-wearing biking should take place on the street... but when it's me and the kids going 7mph those wide bike-paths in Holland are fantastic! Plus, you can basically get all the way to the beach using those paths.
We are progressives who moved to Holland from the east coast, so you might imagine the shock. While I have many friends and family all over the country who are conservative, the thing that makes me despair is that these conservative, Dutch Reformed types are (pick your adjective) snobby, stuffy, unfriendly, psychopathic, private, antisocial, or just plain mean to anyone who isn't in their family, church, or political party. It's classic xenophobia.
And whoever above said that Hope is a liberal college. No, that's liberal ARTS college, which is not necessarily the same, especially in this case. How do I know? My spouse is a professor there. The Hope administration would not allow "The Vagina Monologues" on campus. They wouldn't even allow fliers to be displayed when the students and faculty presented it off campus. The Hope administration recently banned a lecture by Lance Black, the Oscar-winning screenwriter of "Milk." Can you guess why? Because of his Oscar or his profession?
Finding a liberal in Holland is liking seeing a shooting star on your nightly walks. Once every few weeks, you'll bump into someone who makes eye contact and who is easy to talk with. Of course, they're new to town or of some minority race and haven't been affected yet. I've learned my lesson. When I go out, I put on my game face and don't even make an attempt to befriend someone unless all signs point in the direction that they are not a local.
We are progressives who moved to Holland from the east coast, so you might imagine the shock. While I have many friends and family all over the country who are conservative, the thing that makes me despair is that these conservative, Dutch Reformed types are (pick your adjective) snobby, stuffy, unfriendly, psychopathic, private, antisocial, or just plain mean to anyone who isn't in their family, church, or political party. It's classic xenophobia.
And whoever above said that Hope is a liberal college. No, that's liberal ARTS college, which is not necessarily the same, especially in this case. How do I know? My spouse is a professor there. The Hope administration would not allow "The Vagina Monologues" on campus. They wouldn't even allow fliers to be displayed when the students and faculty presented it off campus. The Hope administration recently banned a lecture by Lance Black, the Oscar-winning screenwriter of "Milk." Can you guess why? Because of his Oscar or his profession?
Finding a liberal in Holland is liking seeing a shooting star on your nightly walks. Once every few weeks, you'll bump into someone who makes eye contact and who is easy to talk with. Of course, they're new to town or of some minority race and haven't been affected yet. I've learned my lesson. When I go out, I put on my game face and don't even make an attempt to befriend someone unless all signs point in the direction that they are not a local.
Hmmm...
If the rest of the country treated progressives like this... would they all leave?
We are progressives who moved to Holland from the east coast, so you might imagine the shock. While I have many friends and family all over the country who are conservative, the thing that makes me despair is that these conservative, Dutch Reformed types are (pick your adjective) snobby, stuffy, unfriendly, psychopathic, private, antisocial, or just plain mean to anyone who isn't in their family, church, or political party. It's classic xenophobia.
And whoever above said that Hope is a liberal college. No, that's liberal ARTS college, which is not necessarily the same, especially in this case. How do I know? My spouse is a professor there. The Hope administration would not allow "The Vagina Monologues" on campus. They wouldn't even allow fliers to be displayed when the students and faculty presented it off campus. The Hope administration recently banned a lecture by Lance Black, the Oscar-winning screenwriter of "Milk." Can you guess why? Because of his Oscar or his profession?
Finding a liberal in Holland is liking seeing a shooting star on your nightly walks. Once every few weeks, you'll bump into someone who makes eye contact and who is easy to talk with. Of course, they're new to town or of some minority race and haven't been affected yet. I've learned my lesson. When I go out, I put on my game face and don't even make an attempt to befriend someone unless all signs point in the direction that they are not a local.
I am a born again Christian, and probably would be considered an indpendent politically--some liberatarian/constitutionalist--beliefs and I would never live in Holland.
I remember before I became a Christian, how Dutch Reformed people would treat me, and it still gives me the heebie jeebies. They are very cold sorts who do not let anyone else "in". I always got the feeling a lot of them were racist too, one friend of mine called Holland, Johannesburg. I dont know if its that bad, that was many years ago...hope not.
You are right about the stuffy, snobby culture. I saw it living in Kalamazoo, I some trickles down there. a Close relative of mine got a Dutch Reformed boss, and I thought oh wow, they will be fired, and they were!
When I was young, I had a Dutch Reformed roommate, that kicked me out, I was listening to some music, that is what I listened to pre-Christian days, it was something mild like Mission UK or something, and she came in my room screaming, that is the DEVILS MUSIC! I thought she was going to hit me. Her and her pal threw me out for being a hell-bound pagan, {I was an art teacher, that never touched alcohol}
That church with rare exceptions, is basically an ethnic based cult in my opinion. I may not agree with you about Vagina Monologues and Milk, but I would talk to you. I have the feeling we would could have a friendly conversation but a lot of those ultra snobby Dutch Reformed wouldnt talk to me in a million years! {they wouldnt give a disabled person one glance} I feel sorry for those born into that culture who do not "fit in" that has to be a nightmare.
I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. I think some of the attitudes have filtered down to St. Joseph MI. {the snobbery, coldness etc}
Your best chances of finding friends is going to Saguatauk/Douglas--getting in with the liberal arts community there, or going to Kalamazoo.
Last edited by WheredoIlive?; 11-11-2009 at 07:51 AM..
The people in Ottawa country are nice and treat others well, BUT for liberals it's hard to form deep friendships with the conservatives there. They tend to stick with their church families for their friendships and social networks. I'm very liberal and have spent my entire life time (67 years) interacting with the conservatives in West Michigan and I have found the best way to do that is to just not be as open with my views/opinions on politics, social issues, and religion as I really am. It's nice part of the state, though, and a good place to live but I agree with magellan that religious conservatives (and there are many in the county) often do look at non-Christians as fresh meat to be converted. That's why I keep my opinions to myself as much as possible. Most will back off on asking you to their churches if you politely turn them down. I've only had one person continue to ask every so often.
I was listening to some music, that is what I listened to pre-Christian days, it was something mild like Mission UK or something, and she came in my room screaming, that is the DEVILS MUSIC! I thought she was going to hit me. Her and her pal threw me out for being a hell-bound pagan, {I was an art teacher, that never touched alcohol}
Seriously?
Sounds like you had an interaction with a CRAZY PERSON.
Just for the record, crazy people come from all sorts of different backgrounds. That one happened to be Christian Reformed. I've spent enough time around the Reformed "cult" to know that there are a few awful ones but plenty of nice, reasonable, caring, and genuine ones, too.
Be careful with stereotyping and painting with a broad brush. Generalizations can be useful sometimes, but to say that all Christian Reformed people "wouldn't give a disabled person a second look" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. That is no better than making a blanket statement about "all black people."
Sounds like you had an interaction with a CRAZY PERSON.
Just for the record, crazy people come from all sorts of different backgrounds. That one happened to be Christian Reformed. I've spent enough time around the Reformed "cult" to know that there are a few awful ones but plenty of nice, reasonable, caring, and genuine ones, too.
Be careful with stereotyping and painting with a broad brush. Generalizations can be useful sometimes, but to say that all Christian Reformed people "wouldn't give a disabled person a second look" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. That is no better than making a blanket statement about "all black people."
Hey I knew it was risky to write what I did but one thing youll learn about me please spare me the PC code, where to comment on any group of people in any general way is to issue forth the condemnations of the PC police. And I wasnt talking about Christian Reform people, I was talking about DUTCH Reformed. That is a whole different ballgame. {Even I read some writings of reformed folks like James White, Pyromanics etc--even if I dont agree with everything being more a baptist fundamentalist}
Are there probably some nice ones? Sure there are, but there are plenty of mean ones. I try to give every individual a chance, but there are things that people are noticing. It is an insular, elitist culture, and some of the teachings of the churches do interact with the influences on the people. I am not basing my opinion here based on only one or two interactions, but MANY MORE then that.
Some of those attitudes do influence how they treat disabled people/the poor/ and other disenfranchised folks.
I believe if we look to its roots, ie the Dutch, we must recognize culturally how they are. Living in "little Geneva" Holland Mi area, the dutch do have the tendancy to not be very warm people. Very unemotional. But with newer generations 'mixed breeding' dutch with non dutch, you are seeing a change in behavior. Once the old school dies off I believe we will see a resurgeance in an attitude of care for the poor and less educated. J, you are speaking of true blue bloods with deep reformed segregated roots. It is lamentable, but not a definition for all. The way some act, one could almost be led to believe that God is a segregationist, bringing the Gospel to WASPS only, yet we know this could not be farther from the truth.
The hard part of this transition from entitlement attitude to pure compassion comes a strain of liberalism. We always pick extremes, that is our detriment.
From another guy's blog {Gorilla Press blog}
Quote:
2007-10-31 16:59:26
When I first moved to this small, conservative, Dutch-Reformed, Western Michigan town, it was hard to adjust to some of the longtime residents customs. Our first big run in with the neighbors occurred about 3 weeks after we moved in. On a fine sunday afternoon, after lunch with the family I was instructed to go and mow the lawn. Where I used to live this would be no problem at all. I grew up in a predominantly catholic town, which was about 25 minutes outside of Chicago. It was a fairly large town, with good people and amazingly good times. Back to the story, so I grabbed the lawnmower and started it, and proceeded to mow the lawn. About 10 minutes into my task a neighbor came by and asked me what I was doing, I looked at him like he was a moron, so he went and knocked on the door and asked for my mother. He then proceeded to tell her, in a fashion that i found out later to be typical dutch reformed snobbery, that in this town we don’t do “manual labor” on[
Last edited by WheredoIlive?; 11-12-2009 at 09:53 AM..
So do the things being said about Holland apply to Grand Haven as well?
What about the Grand Rapids area in general?
Rockford in particular?
Thanks!
Never been to Grand haven or Rockford.
Grand Rapids, there is that flavor there, but there is enough outsiders and other people and the city is big enough, that you will meet much more diverse group of people.
Sounds like you had an interaction with a CRAZY PERSON.
Just for the record, crazy people come from all sorts of different backgrounds. That one happened to be Christian Reformed. I've spent enough time around the Reformed "cult" to know that there are a few awful ones but plenty of nice, reasonable, caring, and genuine ones, too.
Be careful with stereotyping and painting with a broad brush. Generalizations can be useful sometimes, but to say that all Christian Reformed people "wouldn't give a disabled person a second look" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. That is no better than making a blanket statement about "all black people."
You have to admit though that there are A LOT of Christian Reformed people who may not be as hostile, but look at all non-CRC, non-Christians and non-religious as "potential recruits" to the good word. Living your life believing that your view is the only view, and need to proselytize every time you turn around does rub wrong on a lot of people.
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Holland vs Grand Haven, G.R., Rockford
