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The Armed Forces are the real one percenters. Willing to take a bullet for the OP who posted this question, just so the OP could post such a question. I love the way you phrase the question such a way.... The real question should be " Are you willing to taking a bullet to the head for your neighbor?"
Two ways this is one of the most retarded arguments:
1). Most miliatry personel never see a day of combat, meaning most will never be shot at.
2). There isn't one military campaign since the Pearl Harbor half of WWII that was either justified or beneficial. I have no problem saying that those who fought in Korea, Vietnam or the Gulf Wars did us no favors, what so ever. The real one percenters were the ones who had the balls to not go to Vietnam when they were called it. That takes a lot more guts than just "doing as I was told".
I am recently retired (2003) from the U.S. Navy after nearly 21 years of SERVICE. That means the work I (and all those that SERVED) did was for the country, not for ourselves. We can't tell our bosses to "shove it." And we sure as heck can't just say "I'm not going to do this job anymore today."
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Originally Posted by RegQ
The reason I ask is there is this attitude among many who did serve that those who didn't gave less to their country.
I don't think you can accurately paint with this broad of a brush stroke for every single person. People serve for different reasons (no future in school, no jobs, to avoid prison, to get out of financial hardship, because their entire family serves, etc.). I do, however, think this can apply to generations of people. People before me felt a duty to their country - that what you call "patriotism" - and served when the call was put out. Especially during WWI and WWII. After the Korean war, as liberalism took over America (sex, drugs, and rock and roll - "if it feels good, do it!!") and people felt less patriotism (as a generation) than previously displayed. The older generations of stars knew this patriotism, and put service to the country BEFORE their own selfishness - not so with your generation. They're fat and happy and would rather sit on their rich bottoms than do something for someone else besides themselves.
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Originally Posted by RegQ
My personal belief is that all of our Military Missions overseas since WWII were not justified and if anything were a net draw on the Nation's economic and social health.
Let's be honest... who cares what you think the military missions are? You have no concept of geopolitics (more than likely), less of service to anything but game-playing buddies, etc. This is not a poke at you, but at young people who think because of the internet and heavily liberal-based mainstream media they understand things in the world. Got a secret for you... I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that most people that haven't served in the military don't know the genesis for missions now, or in history. That's not a slam against them, it's a fact. What's bad about that thought is that most are happy in their ignorance. Again, that's fine... but comments like yours above are sophomoric in it's generalizations.
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Originally Posted by RegQ
Not to discount the sacrifice soldiers make but it's hard to argue that they're any more productive than those who work at home in the private sector.
I don't argue with you here... but the job of the military member is not always production. It's to conduct warfare. And what's the ultimate goal of warfare, to kill more of the opposing force than they do to your force. So, regardless of why people join, each person is there for one simple reason - kill or be killed when the time comes. Sure there's support functions, but they learned how to shoot a weapon before they ever got trained in their specific job.
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Originally Posted by RegQ
Also, many private sector jobs are more dangerous than military duty such as commercial fishing and trucking. Also, they don't come with lifetime VA benefits.
As mentioned in previous posts... any of these can be walked away from at any time. And, private sector jobs are generally more lucrative financially, but serve no one but the corporation. I doubt you'll find many "commercial fishing" or "trucking" people who say "I felt it was my duty" and "this is my way of keeping my country and our way of life safe". Not all military may say that, but the majority certainly could!
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Originally Posted by RegQ
I also love how conservatives rant against government healthcare yet they have no problem giving it to Vets via the VA Healthcare system.
Because they sacrifice with everything they have... follow orders... move every 3-4 years... spend months/years away from their families... know they "may" go into harms way... all the while making sure no "enemies, foreign or domestic" mess with your electricity to play with your X-Box, and make sure you and your kids will speak English in the foreseeable future.
Don't serve in our military if you don't want to, we might be better off without people like you. But if you do, I hope you go in with your eyes open and your mouth shut... because you have a LOT to learn about the military and life in general. Remember, we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth for a reason.
I am recently retired (2003) from the U.S. Navy after nearly 21 years of SERVICE. That means the work I (and all those that SERVED) did was for the country, not for ourselves. We can't tell our bosses to "shove it." And we sure as heck can't just say "I'm not going to do this job anymore today."
Sure you can. It is possible to breach your contract and be thrown out. While you may feel you did it for your country, I didn't. I was a mud Marine because I like shooting and blowing things up.
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Originally Posted by Rathagos
Let's be honest... who cares what you think the military missions are? You have no concept of geopolitics (more than likely), less of service to anything but game-playing buddies, etc. This is not a poke at you, but at young people who think because of the internet and heavily liberal-based mainstream media they understand things in the world. Got a secret for you... I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that most people that haven't served in the military don't know the genesis for missions now, or in history. That's not a slam against them, it's a fact. What's bad about that thought is that most are happy in their ignorance. Again, that's fine... but comments like yours above are sophomoric in it's generalizations.
Here again you're directing the propaganda that you've bought into and slamming another member because of what they believe. Our military is misused daily, and has been throughout our history. We meddle in other country's affairs, and when there's backlash, the propaganda machine is fired up and everybody wants blood because some Navy ship, Marine embassy, or twin towers were bombed. If we'd let other countries run their affairs, we wouldn't need such a big military. Then there are the wealthy elite, which control the government, and the government controls the military, so we go places just so American companies can set up shop.
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Originally Posted by Rathagos
I don't argue with you here... but the job of the military member is not always production. It's to conduct warfare. And what's the ultimate goal of warfare, to kill more of the opposing force than they do to your force. So, regardless of why people join, each person is there for one simple reason - kill or be killed when the time comes. Sure there's support functions, but they learned how to shoot a weapon before they ever got trained in their specific job.
Most of the military is for support.
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Originally Posted by Rathagos
As mentioned in previous posts... any of these can be walked away from at any time. And, private sector jobs are generally more lucrative financially, but serve no one but the corporation. I doubt you'll find many "commercial fishing" or "trucking" people who say "I felt it was my duty" and "this is my way of keeping my country and our way of life safe". Not all military may say that, but the majority certainly could!
Here again, the military can be walked away from at any time. Private sector jobs for most people do not pay as much as the military. We're talking about 18 year old high school graduates for the most part. Their options are McDonalds if they're lucky, or the military. This isn't 1946 -1980ish when jobs abounded for strong backs. Moreover, how many of those jobs offer such great benefits that last a lifetime for as little as 2 years service with an honorable discharge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos
Because they sacrifice with everything they have... follow orders... move every 3-4 years... spend months/years away from their families... know they "may" go into harms way... all the while making sure no "enemies, foreign or domestic" mess with your electricity to play with your X-Box, and make sure you and your kids will speak English in the foreseeable future.
Sure it's hard to be married and stay in touch with one's family while in the military, but there are a lot of civilian jobs that do the same and are far more dangerous. Of the entire military, how many are actual combatants and of those, how many actually go to war? The military's pretty safe. And as far as the military keeping me safe from "enemies, foreign or domestic," that's a load of rubbish. Our own government is more evil than most of our enemies. In fact, most of my enemies out there in the world were created by my government poking its nose in their affairs. Hence, my government puts me at more risk, and the military is nothing more than the sword they use to further some political agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos
Don't serve in our military if you don't want to, we might be better off without people like you. But if you do, I hope you go in with your eyes open and your mouth shut... because you have a LOT to learn about the military and life in general. Remember, we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth for a reason.
The condescending attitude towards the other forum member never end. Suppose I did the same to you because you were in the Navy? I'm quite sure that I spent more time at Paris Island than you did in Navy boot camp, and that mine was much more difficult. Moreover, I was a mud Marine. I spend most of my time out in the field with a lot of inclement weather. When main side, I was stuck in a 200 man squad bay with a bunch of rocks that were too stupid to pass and ASVAB test, so somebody had to do it for them. This was at a time when the possible score was 150 and one only needed a 31 to get into the suck.
Moreover, I'm not sure who we'd be worse of with. Some Kool-Aid drinking Halls of Montezuma type like you or somebody that questions things. The bottom line is we don't need such a huge military. It causes more problems for us than it solves, and it's bankrupting our nation.
I'm not sure what's worse, this sickening blind patriotism or the opposite that this country saw post Vietnam.
I went in a few years after the Vietnam war ended, and we were hated. I got snide comments everywhere. Even when I was out of uniform, my high and tight gave me away, but the way this country is championing our use of the military today is as bad or worse.
What is it with this country that we can never have a middle of the road approach on anything?
Let's be honest... who cares what you think the military missions are? You have no concept of geopolitics (more than likely), less of service to anything but game-playing buddies, etc. This is not a poke at you, but at young people who think because of the internet and heavily liberal-based mainstream media they understand things in the world. Got a secret for you... I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that most people that haven't served in the military don't know the genesis for missions now, or in history. That's not a slam against them, it's a fact. What's bad about that thought is that most are happy in their ignorance. Again, that's fine... but comments like yours above are sophomoric in it's generalizations..
Oh, ok, so the 80 or so percent who didn't serve, including many who work for the Federal Government(CIA, FBI, etc.) have no concempt of geopolitics????
I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your diatribe because someone else already did a good job picking it apart but I couldn't help myself with this part of it.
Why don't you go back to sleep in that room with the Dick Cheney Portrait hanging on the wall. I'm sure he's proud of another mindless drone who is just "following orders" and being a good "patriot"
Oh, ok, so the 80 or so percent who didn't serve, including many who work for the Federal Government(CIA, FBI, etc.) have no concempt of geopolitics????
I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your diatribe because someone else already did a good job picking it apart but I couldn't help myself with this part of it.
Why don't you go back to sleep in that room with the Dick Cheney Portrait hanging on the wall. I'm sure he's proud of another mindless drone who is just "following orders" and being a good "patriot"
Typical. If a poster doesn't agree with you he's low-brow or off on a diatribe. Ad hominem is the sign of a weak argument and insults the sign of desperation and often a weak mind.
Your debating skills need a refurbishing also. The subject was not whether wars have been justified. The subject was the patriotism of those who fight them or are willing to. As you've clearly never served in either capacity you don't know what you're talking about. That's a statement of fact, not an insult. Ignorance can be fixed.
Serve a hitch. Then you'll have something to talk about.
Typical. If a poster doesn't agree with you he's low-brow or off on a diatribe. Ad hominem is the sign of a weak argument and insults the sign of desperation and often a weak mind.
Your debating skills need a refurbishing also. The subject was not whether wars have been justified. The subject was the patriotism of those who fight them or are willing to. As you've clearly never served in either capacity you don't know what you're talking about. That's a statement of fact, not an insult. Ignorance can be fixed.
Serve a hitch. Then you'll have something to talk about.
Not one single post of yours addressed the question. If you're going to accuse anyone of being insulting, you should read your first post on this thread. Kettle meet Pot.
As for your last remark Well, I guess 80 plus percent of the population(those who never served) have nothing to talk about.
Not one single post of yours addressed the question. If you're going to accuse anyone of being insulting, you should read your first post on this thread. Kettle meet Pot.
As for your last remark Well, I guess 80 plus percent of the population(those who never served) have nothing to talk about.
No. An honest observation based upon a question of other's opinions being asked and then every point argued.
As for the rest, you got that right. The 80% can address the value, the cost and the efficacy of the military but not the motives of those who serve or have served because they have no frame of reference. There are almost 1.5 million serving right now and approximately 21.8 million of us veterans. That's how many different reasons there are. We're not all poured out of the same mode and spray painted olive-drab!
No. An honest observation based upon a question of other's opinions being asked and then every point argued.
As for the rest, you got that right. The 80% can address the value, the cost and the efficacy of the military but not the motives of those who serve or have served because they have no frame of reference. There are almost 1.5 million serving right now and approximately 21.8 million of us veterans. That's how many different reasons there are. We're not all poured out of the same mode and spray painted olive-drab!
Curmudgeon, you are wasting good posting time here. The little fish hasn't a clue and isn't open to learning.
IMHO, military service solidifies a persons sense of patriotism.
No arguement to that, but I believe that a person can get the same strengthening experience in other phases of life.
A physical issue made it clear to me at an early age that i would never have to worry about being drafted, but later experiences did include working in close contact with military personnel. That in turn provided enough exposure to understad that the military is, by necessity, a strange balance between an over-bureaucatized, over-regimented existence, and shorter, more-spontaneous cycles of real sacrifice and in some cases, extreme risk.
It would be presuptuous of me to try to speak for any military personnel, active or vteran, who participate at this site, but in m dealing with them, I hope it's recognized that the management of authority, and recognition of the consequences of its misuse, plays the central role in the day-to-day operation of our Armed Forces -- always has, always will.
To the millions of people who, despite some mistakes, have managed that responsibility effectively, a sincere thanks.
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