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I know this is a pretty controversial topic, but I think this is perhaps the best place to talk about a topic like this, due to the anonymity (which encourages uninhibited opinions for better or for worse). It probably wouldn't be a topic discussed amongst a diverse crowd.
This is something that has irked and interested me for a while. It seems as though once one race begins moving in, another race begins moving out after a "tipping point" of some sort. It doesn't seem to do with the income levels of people moving in, either. I will give a few examples I'm familiar with.
2. South suburban Cook County, IL (Where Chicago is located)
The south suburbs were mainly white during the 1960s/1970s/1980s, when white flight was all the rave. Then, something happened. As south side communities began having major issues, upwardly mobile blacks began moving to the south suburbs, in search of a better life for their families. The area was integrated for a while, but the overall result has been white flight. For example, Flossmoor, which was once considered one of the most exclusive south suburbs, has changed from ~65% white to 44% white, and the black population has increased from ~20% ~45% in ten years. There doesn't appear to be any stabilization, either. Income levels the same, crime rates the same, schools are still pretty solid, but the people living here are different. Why does this happen?
It's not just a white/black thing, either. In many parts of southern California, whites are moving from areas with large Hispanic populations. Many cite this due to the "dumbing down of schools" to cater to ESL students. I'm not too familiar with areas with upper-income Hispanic-dominated neighborhoods, but Miami & L.A. come to mind.
Even in some parts of Silicon Valley in northern California, whites are beginning to move from heavily Asian populated areas. This one really confounded me since, generally speaking, Asians are well integrated. They do well in school, have high incomes, etc. It's a recipe for a desirable neighborhood, but whites are leaving.
Article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113236377590902105.html
My initial thought is that, despite income, crime, and other factors, most people tend to want to live around people that look like them. But that can't be the entire picture, because in places like Oak Park, IL & Shaker Heights, Ohio, people of different backgrounds live together fine (or at least seem to). There is no flight of any sort. What makes these areas stay diverse compared to other areas? There's no obvious "flight."
At the end of the day, we are stronger united than divided. I'm not singling out white flight. California is experiencing "black flight" as well, as hispanics move into formerly black areas such as South Central, and some of L.A.'s suburbs to the south. Again, I don't think that it's impossible to live together. I think we all want the same thing: the best for our family. We're united by that. I think the difference comes in HOW we get the best for our family. Do people of different races see "best" as seeing other successful individuals of your race? What if you see "best" for your family as knowing that in America, EVERYONE can succeed? Is this de facto segregation wrong, or is it justified? If de facto segregation is the norm, what happens when someone from a different race wants to move in, based on their definition of "best?" Is it accepted, why or why not?
I would love to hear from those that "flighted" and why. The good, the bad, the ugly. I am really looking forward to this debate!
Last edited by CHICAGOLAND92; 07-02-2013 at 04:10 PM..
You see this phenomenon even within cities. In one city near where I grew up, the north side had always been Italian. Blacks moved in and Italians moved out. South side was French Canadian. Puerto Ricans moved in and French Canadians moved out. West side was Irish, East was Polish/German. I haven't been back there in a few years, but I'd imagine immigrants have taken over the east and west sides as well. Peruvians were flocking to the city in droves before I left. The city I'm referring to is now known as "Ghetto-bury". Most whites have fled to the surrounding suburbs.
I think residents of an area tend to believe the area is "going downhill" and no longer feel safe or comfortable when the demographics change so suddenly and thoroughly. And because it happens so quickly, I think people don't have a chance to absorb the changes and instead become alarmed by them.
In areas where there is a lot of diversity already, people seem to adjust with no problem. My neighborhood is a mix of white, Hispanic and black. No problem for any of us who live here. But it may have been for the folks who lived here 20-30 years ago when the area was primarily white.
(1) Schools. In the 1970s, whites would be bussed to schools other than their neighborhood schools, so they fled to the suburbs to avoid busing.
(2) Shopping Malls and Highways. Again, in the 1960s and 1970s, shopping malls and highways meant whites no longer had to live near downtown to shop or work.
(3) Taxes and Services. Whites saw their property values drop and their property taxes increase to pay for additional social and government services such as housing and especially education for children of the poor, while they had to spend money sending their children to private schools. Whites were predominately the property owners and paid the majority of taxes.
(4) Fear. Whites are afraid to live around people who their ancestors once subjugated. When blacks become the majority, will they be prejudiced against whites? How about Asians? Maybe no one likes to be a minority, not even whites.
(5) Language. Earlier immigrants spoke English by second generation. It's annoying for most white English speaking people to be around people who don't or won't speak English.
Last edited by hot_in_dc; 07-02-2013 at 05:25 PM..
(1) Schools. In the 1970s, whites would be bussed to schools other than their neighborhood schools, so they fled to the suburbs to avoid busing.
(2) Shopping Malls and Highways. Again, in the 1960s and 1970s, shopping malls and highways meant whites no longer had to live near downtown to shop or work.
(3) Taxes and Services. Whites saw their property values drop and their property taxes increase to pay for additional social and government services such as housing and especially education for children of the poor, while they had to spend money sending their children to private schools. Whites were predominately the property owners and paid the majority of taxes.
(4) Fear. Whites are afraid to live around people who their ancestors once subjugated. When blacks become the majority, will they be prejudiced against whites? How about Asians? Maybe no one likes to be a minority, not even whites.
(5) Language. Earlier immigrants spoke English by second generation. It's annoying for most white English speaking people to be around people who don't or won't speak English.
I was a victim if this bussing back in the 70's. We lived in the suburbs of Jacksonville, Fl and they experimented with the 7th grade. My family didn't move and it was a miserable year. We were bussed to an inner city school and the tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife. I got into a fistfight with another male (black) and the tension got even worse. 3 days before school was done for the year several older boys cornered me at my bus and threatened to knife me for beating up their little brother. The fight lasted all of 10 seconds before we were separated. The last 2 days of school my parents kept me home and I was told there were few, to no white kids in school. We did move to VA after this but it was job related for my parents.
I was a victim if this bussing back in the 70's. We lived in the suburbs of Jacksonville, Fl and they experimented with the 7th grade. My family didn't move and it was a miserable year. We were bussed to an inner city school and the tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife. I got into a fistfight with another male (black) and the tension got even worse. 3 days before school was done for the year several older boys cornered me at my bus and threatened to knife me for beating up their little brother. The fight lasted all of 10 seconds before we were separated. The last 2 days of school my parents kept me home and I was told there were few, to no white kids in school. We did move to VA after this but it was job related for my parents.
Busing or desegregation in the 1970s was a big deal, and still deeply ingrained in the back of the minds of whites who came of age during that era. The whites who were left behind in the inner cities and who opposed putting their children on a bus to ride an hour across the city instead of just walking down the street to their neighborhood school were labeled "racists."
Now the white adult children of the white people who fled the cities are back in the cities, gentrifying them. Where were they when the inner cities needed them?
I doubt they will improve the inner city schools, crime, etc. in their lifetimes. They will get tired of living among crime and poverty and they will also "flee" to the suburbs.
I was a victim if this bussing back in the 70's. We lived in the suburbs of Jacksonville, Fl and they experimented with the 7th grade. My family didn't move and it was a miserable year. We were bussed to an inner city school and the tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife. I got into a fistfight with another male (black) and the tension got even worse. 3 days before school was done for the year several older boys cornered me at my bus and threatened to knife me for beating up their little brother. The fight lasted all of 10 seconds before we were separated. The last 2 days of school my parents kept me home and I was told there were few, to no white kids in school. We did move to VA after this but it was job related for my parents.
Luckily my parents moved the summer before forced desegregation went full force, but we were moving anyway not because of it. I believe a lot of people moved out of the neighborhood that year tho.
I live in a rural area now and the white flight I see is people moving here mostly from FL, CA, NJ and a few other northern states due more to high taxes, gov. regulations and, in their own words, rude people. Race dosent seem to be the issue.
White flight?
What about the opposite problem,where whites are moving back to the cities and displacing the others(aka Gentrification).
In any event,I just see it as human nature.
Aside form color,even Homosexuals want to live around each other. So do people of different religions. There are whole muslim neighborhhoods in Paterson,Nj
I think its just that people want to find common ground.
White flight?
What about the opposite problem,where whites are moving back to the cities and displacing the others(aka Gentrification).
In any event,I just see it as human nature.
Aside form color,even Homosexuals want to live around each other. So do people of different religions. There are whole muslim neighborhhoods in Paterson,Nj I think its just that people want to find common ground.
^I think jerseygal4u hit the nail on the head.
Now sometimes, that common ground can be something other than race/appearance/religion/etc.
I live in a condo complex--we all have the same house, more or less. I am white (bought the place from an elderly Korean couple) and work for a public transportation agency. To my left is a black couple--he's a mailman, she's retired from a civil service job. To my right is a Malaysian couple--he's a chef, she works in an office. On the other side of the black couple is a young white couple--she's a teacher, he's an engineer. On the other side of the Malaysian couple lives a white/Chinese-American couple--she's a teacher, he's with a government agency.
We're all sort of the same--working/middle class, nobody's gonna get rich doing what we do, but nobody's poor, either. Everyone has a practical vehicle, everybody's family-oriented.
Simple: When an area becomes a Black or Hispanic Majority the quality of life for everyone (including the Blacks and Hispanics) go down hill.
Unfortunately, this has more to do with government policies like Department of Housing and Urban Development where blacks especially were not placed in single family homes but in large tenements or housing projects. Some of us remember when the housing projects were built, and once again, any whites who opposed housing projects were labeled "racist."
Since they didn't own the property, even when it was repaired or brand spanking new, they would "tear it up." Then, boyfriends lived with the mother of their children instead of marrying them, again because of government policies.
This is why a lot of white people over a certain age are concerned about government policies and over-reach into social programs, not that support the poor but that keep them in generational poverty. Question any of Obama's policies? Be labeled a "racist."
White flight?
What about the opposite problem,where whites are moving back to the cities and displacing the others(aka Gentrification).
In any event,I just see it as human nature.
Aside form color,even Homosexuals want to live around each other. So do people of different religions. There are whole muslim neighborhhoods in Paterson,Nj
I think its just that people want to find common ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
^I think jerseygal4u hit the nail on the head.
Now sometimes, that common ground can be something other than race/appearance/religion/etc.
I live in a condo complex--we all have the same house, more or less. I am white (bought the place from an elderly Korean couple) and work for a public transportation agency. To my left is a black couple--he's a mailman, she's retired from a civil service job. To my right is a Malaysian couple--he's a chef, she works in an office. On the other side of the black couple is a young white couple--she's a teacher, he's an engineer. On the other side of the Malaysian couple lives a white/Chinese-American couple--she's a teacher, he's with a government agency.
We're all sort of the same--working/middle class, nobody's gonna get rich doing what we do, but nobody's poor, either. Everyone has a practical vehicle, everybody's family-oriented.
We all look alike.
I live in a city that experienced lots of white flight. Our policies encouraged white flight. We basically said minorities couldn't live in certain neighborhoods, could not get mortgages in certain areas, and then made it harder to sell the real estate in those areas, leaving minority "ghettos."
This redlining continued well into the 80s.
Growing up, I lived in an area that was skeptical of "minorities" as well. Of course my neighbors were pleasant towards me, but I heard those same neighbors complaining about the "weird arab family" that lived in the neighborhood. I don't even know if they were arab.
Today's Oakland can be very diverse in some areas. And there is also a lot of "white return" too. Lots of gentrification, but it isn't a white only phenomenon. Middle class + young people are moving all over Oakland, and they come from all backgrounds. We only seen to call it gentrification when it is white people. Technically, I could be a gentrifier, although my own area was pretty well-off before I moved in. No gentrification needed. There are other areas that were mainly black middle class that have seen "black flight" to the east coast or more inland areas of California.
We do have an opportunity here, maybe, if young people especially are open to living among "different" people. My own condo building is very representative of the neighborhood. It is roughly evenly mixed Latino, Black, Asian and white. My neighborhood is as well. But somehow, in Oakland, the public schools rarely reflect the neighborhood. Middle class (and up) families send their kids to private schools, and middle and high schools are about 95% black and latino, while the city of Oakland is about 35% white, 28% black, 25% latino, 20% asian.
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