Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I suggest that Op just is one of those who believe the world after WWII would be the same if we reverted to pre-war isolation; plain and simple. If you just leave others alone everything will be peaches. That why its so much a problem living off sacrifice of others with no draft and few witnessing the reality of much of the world and what humans are capable of. its also why so many after WWII thought even in tough times they had it made after what they saw and witness about reality of humans. I suggest he look or talk to people who lived thru a 15% reduction during the 70s oil embargo. Then think about what over 50% would have done if Saddam gained control over middle east oil fields with no army to kick his butt out to US; much less to the world. It would make this recession look mild and if like depression poverty might soon be the norm with all its problems in mass.
Many wars are fights for resources by nations and empires under the guise of religion, freedom, humanity, etc to gather support from the majority of the masses. Is easy to get support for military action if you can convince people that they will suffer from a reduced standard of living if no military action is taken. Ironically war and huge armies reduces a nation's standard of living because they are expensive and costly. A perfect example is the 2 gulf wars involving the USA and Iraq. Many people were sold on supporting it because they were told their benefits of comfortable standard of living would be negatively impacted if Saddam was allowed to control a significant share of fossil fuels in the ground. The USA's standard of living would only be impacted in that the government deficits would no longer be sustainable if dollar lost its world reserve status so yes the country would have to rearrange its priorities. So we thank the troops for our freedoms as Americans because we confuse freedom with a comfortable standard of living. In all honesty we should thank them for enabling the US government to spend money more than it takes in without suffering adverse effects.
Many people sincerely believe the troops guarantee the freedom of Americans. I sincerely believed it at one time. Once I started to realize how blatantly politicians and could lie and how the media would characterize situations i decided not to take other people's word of how things were but to actually seek as much information as to form my own opinion on things. Once I did that I realize things are not as simple as sound bites on TV.
Politicians will shape any cause to fit their agenda; after 9/11 every possible angle was utilized to send troops into Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with Al Queda at the time. There was no freedom being secured for us then or now, and it's completely arguable whether "we" freed the Iraqui people as well.
When I see an active duty folk, After I say thanks...I say "stay safe." And I mean what I say from the bottom of my heart.
""Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato
I doubt troops really care to hear "Thank you for your service" Or "thank you for protecting my freedom" OR whatever.
There are people who say "Thank you for your service" really mean it, there are people saying it because they follow the basic procedures of politeness in our society. Example, I say "thank you" when cashier gives me my change. Its social lubrication...and truth be told they aren't really all that thankful for you service in the first place. Let's not fool ourselves.
I suggest that Op just is one of those who believe the world after WWII would be the same if we reverted to pre-war isolation; plain and simple. If you just leave others alone everything will be peaches. That why its so much a problem living off sacrifice of others with no draft and few witnessing the reality of much of the world and what humans are capable of. its also why so many after WWII thought even in tough times they had it made after what they saw and witness about reality of humans. I suggest he look or talk to people who lived thru a 15% reduction during the 70s oil embargo. Then think about what over 50% would have done if Saddam gained control over middle east oil fields with no army to kick his butt out to US; much less to the world. It would make this recession look mild and if like depression poverty might soon be the norm with all its problems in mass.
You clearly misunderstood the point of my original post. I was never suggesting isolationism. I simply want people to speak the truth.
So many times, you hear people saying that "we need to thank the troops for protecting our freedoms as Americans" as if the troops are out, actively fighting to preserve the rights of Americans in places like
Iraq and Afghanistan while at home, politicians and entities like the NSA are actively undermining those very rights.
I'm old enough to remember the Carter doctrine: "Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an
assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force."
I think that policy absolutely guides our foreign policy today. It is in our interest to sustain the steady flow of oil out of the middle east and any threat to that flow is a threat to our stability and our national interests.
So… if people were honest and said that the troops were fighting to maintain the steady and consistent flow or oil out of the middle east to keep the wheels from falling off of our economy and way of life that would
make much more sense than this notion that they are defending our rights as Americans or our freedoms.
I also realize that telling the unvarnished truth doesn't get politicians reelected or recruiters to meet their quotas so I guess I have my answer as to why people need to dress this up in a more noble or heroic rhetoric.
With all of that said, I absolutely think our troops SHOULD be thanked for their service and SHOULD be viewed as heroes who are willing to do the dirty work and make sacrifices so that our country can have stable
economy and people can have a decent chance for a good life. I don't agree that our troops should be used in that capacity but I also realize that their job is to follow orders, not make policy. They have no say in it
and shoulder no blame.
I also think that if you TRULY want to do the troops a favor… maybe you stop spreading this patriotic rhetoric about them "fighting for freedom" and instead start holding POLITICIANS accountable for not having a more
sensible energy policy.
Instead of pasting a "support the troops" bumper sticker on your gas guzzling SUV, maybe buy an economical car and take less unnecessary trips.
One of the problems with thinking the troops are "fighting for freedom" or preventing the next 9/11 is that we never hold the politicians accountable for their blundered policies and we never ask the American people to
examine how THEIR behavior could lessen the burden on the troops, like we did in WWII.
Fighting wars and occupying countries is not a sustainable energy policy. The truth is though, that is what we are doing and since no one would enlist or support an effort to sustain the Carter doctrine, we need to dress
it up in patriotic rhetoric.
The OP does have a point. It's one thing to thank veterans for their service, for their sacrifice, for volunteering, for acceding to the reduction of their own freedoms (military life being less free than civilian life) for a large and broad cause. But this isn't necessarily a reason to conclude that the veterans' sacrifice directly enables the freedoms of Americans in the 21st century. Surely there is SOME connection, however tenuous. But the connection isn't direct and is rife with controversial exogenous attributes.
The point is that the nobility of voluntary military service should not be conflated with a necessary act on which our freedoms are contingent.
That makes entirely too much sense to the indoctrinated, who will reject such a reasoned and astute observation out of hand.
The fact is, war is very profitable, and there has to be a mindset in this country to continue wasting more money on it than the rest of the world combined, as there truly is no value in fighting a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, the very opposite would appear to be true, as it does more to ruin the lives of human beings, both American and especially those citizens of those nations being victimized, than any value that can be implied will result, which is almost limited solely to resource appropriation. And that is a hard sell to people, so a constant barrage of nationalism and sacrifice for "freedom" must be inserted in its place.
There is a reason the Dumbing Down of America remains carefully calculated and deliberate, it is so we Americans will remain oblivious to the foreign policy decisions this country makes, or at the very least, remain apathetic. And one sure-fire way to do that is to make military service sacrosanct, and those who would question its use as somehow committing heresy. And it works, because most people don't want to be the victims of the bullies who would attack them as not respecting the very real sacrifices being made by our military for all the wrong reasons.
You clearly misunderstood the point of my original post. I was never suggesting isolationism. I simply want people to speak the truth.
So many times, you hear people saying that "we need to thank the troops for protecting our freedoms as Americans" as if the troops are out, actively fighting to preserve the rights of Americans in places like
Iraq and Afghanistan while at home, politicians and entities like the NSA are actively undermining those very rights.
I'm old enough to remember the Carter doctrine: "Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force."
I think that policy absolutely guides our foreign policy today. It is in our interest to sustain the steady flow of oil out of the middle east and any threat to that flow is a threat to our stability and our national interests.
So… if people were honest and said that the troops were fighting to maintain the steady and consistent flow or oil out of the middle east to keep the wheels from falling off of our economy and way of life that would
make much more sense than this notion that they are defending our rights as Americans or our freedoms.
I also realize that telling the unvarnished truth doesn't get politicians reelected or recruiters to meet their quotas so I guess I have my answer as to why people need to dress this up in a more noble or heroic rhetoric.
With all of that said, I absolutely think our troops SHOULD be thanked for their service and SHOULD be viewed as heroes who are willing to do the dirty work and make sacrifices so that our country can have stable
economy and people can have a decent chance for a good life. I don't agree that our troops should be used in that capacity but I also realize that their job is to follow orders, not make policy. They have no say in it
and shoulder no blame.
I also think that if you TRULY want to do the troops a favor… maybe you stop spreading this patriotic rhetoric about them "fighting for freedom" and instead start holding POLITICIANS accountable for not having a more
sensible energy policy.
Instead of pasting a "support the troops" bumper sticker on your gas guzzling SUV, maybe buy an economical car and take less unnecessary trips.
One of the problems with thinking the troops are "fighting for freedom" or preventing the next 9/11 is that we never hold the politicians accountable for their blundered policies and we never ask the American people to
examine how THEIR behavior could lessen the burden on the troops, like we did in WWII.
Fighting wars and occupying countries is not a sustainable energy policy. The truth is though, that is what we are doing and since no one would enlist or support an effort to sustain the Carter doctrine, we need to dress
it up in patriotic rhetoric.
Haha Well what would you like to have happen? (as the softball toss arcs heavily my way) I'm picturing the current White House spokes person having a Jim Carrey "Liar Liar" moment. In press conference debriefing on activity in Afghanistan or some foreign 'police action' saying the following:
"We'd like to acknowledge that while we spend approximately ___x billion a month to maintain control of ____ country and the drug war is preeminent in our goals. We acknowledge heroin production has increased exponentially under our nations youth's serving in _____ country, and that that supply of destructive materials knowingly works its way to our shores and destroys countless lives.
However, we need this as another appeal to the fewer and fewer productive working taxpayers to validate more spending - on problems we allow to go on, since it makes us 'few' lots of money in one way or another: medical healthcare pharma industry spending, the legal penal industry services. We can't destroy those poppy fields since they are revenue $tream$ that pay for lots of black ops.
We thank our complicit friends in the media who also serve the same corporate masters who fund us and tell us what to do, even when, it destroys lives at home and abroad. We seek to monetize the conflicts happening throughout the world and we will continue to send your sons and daughters to die for these goals. We are here to serve ourselves - any service to the general taxpayer is purely incidental or strategic for appearance."
Perhaps more of those who 'serve'- will come to the realization USMC General Smedley D. Butler did after long service to the corporate-military- industrial -financial complex. Even better if our 'civil servants' in Bluffdale, UT take this to heart and become inspired by Assange, Snowden etc...
Perhaps those who 'serve' should take the USA Flag off their uniforms and replace with corporate logos for Goldman Sachs, JPMorganChase, Citigroup et al. If people around the world are going to get angry at the "USA", let them at least direct the anger at the parasites devouring from within, no?
You make a great point which is, unfortunately, not understood by many. Makes me think of this
Our freedoms in America were not purchased in a store but paid for in blood. The freedoms that a young man or woman has today in 2014 also were paid for in blood. If our citizens did not join then we would draft them and force them to serve. I think all Americans should serve as I did but we see that most do not. It has been some time since this country was established. Yet in all that time we see bloody conflict one after the other in some part of the world. Would we be so naïve to think that we would never be involved in these conflicts? We followed isolation after WW1 and almost lost WW2. We need to do better.
I have long wondered why we often say that we thank the troops for our freedom in America. I am not trying to be disrespectful and I realize that the troops have no say in the decisions made by politicians but I really do not see how any of the military engagements that we have been involved in since WWII have protected our freedoms as Americans.
If anything, our freedoms as Americans are diminished far more by politicians and organizations like the NSA than they are by anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan.
I may be cynical but I feel we enter wars and military actions in order to justify and/or enrich the military-industrial complex and politicians tell us that the reason is to fight for our freedom which is more palatable to the American voting public.
Yes we need the military. Yes we need a STRONG military. Yes we should be grateful to the young men and women willing to sacrifice and serve their country often at great cost.
I just think that pretending a military effort is a fight for American freedom only ensures more needless wars and military engagements.
It's propaganda that has been pushed on impressionable people. It makes absolutely no sense when you think about it. No free thinking intelligent human being would ever fall for it, but most people are followers. Most of the same people that parrot this nonsense take part in organized religion. These insects are too dumb to decipher what's BS and what's not. They're incredibly easy to manipulate.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well what would you like to have happen? (as the softball toss arcs heavily my way
