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The only thing I disagree about is that he stated that Holland said by making it legal for 16 and above at coffee houses, they made mj boring. Well, alcohol is legal for adults, and for many, it's not boring. I'm not so sure it would become boring by making it legal.
Regardless, it leaves plenty for one to think about.
Interesting point, so lets consider a similar thing in our own (fairly) recent history. Alcohol consumption in many parts of the United States - mostly urban areas - went UP during Prohibition (1920 - 1933), and came back down again after it was repealed. Organized crime played a key role in this, spawning notorious figures like Al Capone and Machine Gun Kelly. Does anyone recall the Chicago street wars or the Valentine's Day Massacre?
Not the same, I grant you. But it does provide considerable food for thought.
I'm glad you're down that way, Juarez was one of the harder hit areas as far as Cartel violence is concerned. So you're saying that it hasn't spilled into your neck of the woods? Do you have occasional run ins with immigrants (drug mules too) or is it pretty quiet?
It's very quiet. The violence is contained at the border and in the past year it has dropped off considerably. Still, I won't go to Juarez and I wouldn't advise anyone else to, either.
Like I said, the cartels are fighting among themselves. The last thing they want or need is to get outside forces involved. They do that in Mexico by having entire police departments on their payrolls, along with state attorneys, judges, you name it. And they can do it there because public officials are mostly paid peanuts and willing to take bribes - especially when it's backed up by threats against them and their families.
They don't have the resources to pull that off north of the border.
Bottom line is the complex prison system is a TRILLON dollar a year business and those involved want it to stay that way. More money in enforcing drug laws for police-lawyers-prisons-states - county's -city's than the drug cartels make on drug selling? Forgot insurance company's in health care - home and auto - business theft - It 's just to big of a money maker for to many people! What could replace it?
The only solution is to legalize drugs. Like it or not. Mr. Rational is right. The cartels wouldn't vanish immediatly, but they would over time. Read about 1860's gangs in New York. How many of them are still around? None. And New York is noway as bad today or even in the 80's as it was back then.
I feel that it's probably the best option we have on the table. I can't see us using force, I know that there are interests that want to beef up border security to line their own pockets. My thought are, if we can tax pot, and even the harder stuff, make it cleaner and legit to buy, I think you'd have less deaths, much less gang violence from the juvenile gangs, and a surplus of tax revenues that could really help out our bankrupt states like California.
This may be a dead thread, but just joined recently and came across it. So I'll say a piece:
I feel like its two-fold.
One: like everyone says-legalize drugs; maybe tax 'em, but have them legal.
Two: Full scale warfare. Mobilize the military and aim 'em at the cartels. We seem to have some forces there already, hunting members of the cartels down. But i think it was like just a few hundred. We need to commit like tens of thousands of troops, gunships, naval power, aerial superiority, bombs...- the works - to hunting down every single gang, and wiping them out. Gather Intel on major players and go after them like we went after Bin Laden. But quicker and more efficiently. Maybe use bounties on them.
As an addendum to #2, we could, after taking out the cartels, take over and industrialize/capitalize their product. Companies ship it up to the states as a commodity, sell it to Americans and whatever European or foreign nations don't mind that stuff. (IE: like coffee) (**NOTE: I am NOT an economics guy so these principles are probably mindblowingly wrong). It'd be like McDonald's but for pot, cocaine, etc. Instead of being brutally violent like the cartels, it'd be a facilitated, industrialized/ global business run by America. At the very least, there wouldn't be psychopaths in charge and running around. And if the cartels ever caused problems, American companies might hire some PMCs or something and they would slam down on them to protect their interests. Basically wipe out the cartels economically and militarily. Idk: probably not at all feasible, but its just an idea utilizing American corporate capitalism efficiently. I'd like to think that our businesses at least aren't psychopaths that cut people up.
TLDR: drive the cartels underground using military force, then overtake their business and Americanize/industrialize it... Eh, just a thought.
Last edited by mrbluehood; 06-30-2014 at 09:35 PM..
I didn't read through this long thread, but I think the only way to stop the narcos is a serious national program to stem the American desire for drug addiction.
I think something that is a similar in size and scope of our national commitment to our lunar space program would be needed. The 60s space program made huge technological leaps in a decade. By the time we finally landed on the moon, there was nothing in the program that was still there in the beginning. Everything had gone through sudden and vast innovation.
A half-century later, I think that we could have the ability to do the same with drugs. We could develop permanent counteractive means to control an addiction, to be used along with all the medical and psychological support systems we already have. And those existing supports can also use massive advancement.
Killing our taste for drugs has to be a national civil priority, by Mexico as well as the U.S. in a joint effort, for success. We already have tools. It's time to use them to advance this priority and make our most sophisticated current tools primitive in comparison to what follows.
Take away the all desire to get high, and drugs become worthless powders.
We are a nation of addicts. Most 'respectable' addicts use prescription painkillers, and most of the poor use illegal street drugs. We must find other ways to effectively manage chronic physical pain, and we must develop better ways to lessen our psychic pain. And alcohol continues to destroy more of us than any other drug.
Otherwise, the perpetual drug war that has been fought for 50 years now will never be won. As long as there is a thriving market, illegal and legal drug makers will find their ready sales. Gangs will take care of the poorer among us and the drug industry will take care of the rest of us.
It's impossible to ever have perfection in this, of course. but if we can eliminate enough desire to make it all so marginally profitable that there is little incentive on either side of the border to invest in the hassle, I think the tide would shortly turn.
In ten years, we went from not having reliably functioning rockets to landing humans on the moon and bringing them back alive. I don't believe the same is impossible with an even more desperate societal need than exploring space.
I don't believe the U.S. should get involved in Mexican affairs. If they come in our country and murder people then yes, but not if they do this in their own country. Like you mentioned OP, these people are pure evil. To me it is a spritual battle and the more evil they are , the more they will have to give account to the one that created them when they were born. You can just look at the 10 commandments and apply it to these people. If the goverment there works with the criminals and takes bribes, and the criminals have more weapons and resources than the police, I think the only thing left to do is Pray. I know some may not believe , but I had to say I believe my Father above can do anything and he says if enough people pray in my name you can move a mountain (not literally.) So, I just added this perspective because it seems like a losing battle, and you showed us vile evil in the first post.
I didn't read through this long thread, but I think the only way to stop the narcos is a serious national program to stem the American desire for drug addiction.
I think something that is a similar in size and scope of our national commitment to our lunar space program would be needed. The 60s space program made huge technological leaps in a decade. By the time we finally landed on the moon, there was nothing in the program that was still there in the beginning. Everything had gone through sudden and vast innovation.
A half-century later, I think that we could have the ability to do the same with drugs. We could develop permanent counteractive means to control an addiction, to be used along with all the medical and psychological support systems we already have. And those existing supports can also use massive advancement.
Killing our taste for drugs has to be a national civil priority, by Mexico as well as the U.S. in a joint effort, for success. We already have tools. It's time to use them to advance this priority and make our most sophisticated current tools primitive in comparison to what follows.
Take away the all desire to get high, and drugs become worthless powders.
We are a nation of addicts. Most 'respectable' addicts use prescription painkillers, and most of the poor use illegal street drugs. We must find other ways to effectively manage chronic physical pain, and we must develop better ways to lessen our psychic pain. And alcohol continues to destroy more of us than any other drug.
Otherwise, the perpetual drug war that has been fought for 50 years now will never be won. As long as there is a thriving market, illegal and legal drug makers will find their ready sales. Gangs will take care of the poorer among us and the drug industry will take care of the rest of us.
It's impossible to ever have perfection in this, of course. but if we can eliminate enough desire to make it all so marginally profitable that there is little incentive on either side of the border to invest in the hassle, I think the tide would shortly turn.
In ten years, we went from not having reliably functioning rockets to landing humans on the moon and bringing them back alive. I don't believe the same is impossible with an even more desperate societal need than exploring space.
The problem with this is the same problem we face as a country when it comes to converting to renewable energy sources. The powers that be stand to lose too much money. Do you honestly think that with all the technology at hand drug companies can't invent non addictive pain killers?........or for that matter find a cure for cancer? There's way too much money involved for any of those things to happen.
Aside from that, you're talking about the human urge to alter consciousnesses which is as old as the human race and not likely to be eradicated by any means. To quote Dr. Andrew Weil: "Human beings are born with a drive to experiment with ways of changing consciousness...The desire to alter consciousness periodically is an innate, normal drive analogous to hunger or the sexual drive...
The root of the drug problem is the failure of our culture to provide for a basic human need. Once we recognize the importance and value of other states of consciousness, we can begin to teach people, particularly the young, how to satisfy their needs without drugs. The chief advantage of drugs is that they are quick and effective, producing desired results without requiring effort. Their chief disadvantage is that they fail us over time; used regularly and frequently, they do not maintain the experiences sought and, instead, limit our options and freedom... "
So instead of trying to deny a basic human urge, why not develop non addictive drugs or encourage things like meditation that satisfy it instead? We are hardwired to alter our consciousness whether it be by making ourselves dizzy on playground equipment as children, reaching for a higher plane via religious entrancement, or snorting, shooting or smoking some form of plant. Fighting the drive to expand or alter consciousness would be about as successful as altering our drive to procreate.
All that aside, I don't believe that simply legalizing drugs will put a stop to cartels. It's too late now, some of them have become too big and drugs are far from their only source of income anymore. Sure.......you might weed out some of the smaller players but that will only make the bigger ones stronger. America is involved when it comes to money laundering, weapons trafficking, counterfeit goods and even the purchasing of stolen oil. Like any other large crime organization, the cartels have diversified as they've grown. Human trafficking alone may soon be outpacing drug profits. Hell.....the US government actually helped fund a cartel for a couple of years from 2010 - 2012. With enemies like that, who needs friends The U.S. Government And The Sinaloa Cartel - Business Insider
Drugs is what has brought this country to its probable end. 2/3's of this country is on some kind of drug.
I have never understood people who need to alter their state of mind to live, for whatever reason. I have no problem with pot for the people who medically and legitimately need it. Otherwise, grow up.
A stoner is a stoner. Good luck with trying to get a coherent sentence out of those people. A heroin addict is a loser. Meth addicts and crackheads are functioning members of society, right ? What a shame we have let indulgent selves come to this. I have never seen a lot of Hispanics with drug habits. Maybe they have the right idea.
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