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Why is there a VA in the first place? Why can't they go anywhere they please?
They can go anywhere they please... if they're willing to pay for it, or if they have outside health care through an employer.
The issue is that the soldiers signed a legal contract. They risked their lives, bodies, and general well-being to fight for whatever political reason their superiors wanted them to fight for. In exchange they were promised health care (mental and physical) for the rest of their lives, but the only way to obtain that health care is through the dysfunctional VA system.
Our politicians make lots of speeches about supporting our troops, but they never deliver when it counts.
As for the original debate topic, any system will fail if you refuse to fund it. As an example, say you start a private hospital (or any business) in a purely capitalistic society then refuse to hire enough staff for the work load, refuse to to pay your staff enough to keep them from leaving, refuse to provide funds for updated equipment, and refuse to provide funds for building maintenance. Then require all patients to fill out mounds of paperwork (which you will throw away and claim you never got) and make them wait months for appointments. Tell me how you think your capitalistic hospital will be doing after a few years, and whether or not you think this is a good example to show how capitalism works.
"The long waits for treatment, with excessive delays resulting in as many as 40 deaths, are a tragically predictable outcome. This is the result of bureaucratic rationing, price controls, inefficiencies and the inevitable cover-ups."
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"John Fund, citing Michael Tanner of the Cato Institute, notes that 344,000 veterans' care claims are now backed up and waiting to be processed, that it takes an average of 160 days for health-benefit approval, and that according to VA figures for 2012, veteran appeals face an average wait time of 1,598 days, or more than four years."
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"The Paul Krugmans of the world and their leftist allies call VA health care a triumph of socialist medicine. But once again we find out that this triumph is a defeat and that socialism doesn't work.
The VA failed our veterans and Socialism failed the VA. Simply put, Socialism is a kissing cousin to Communism and does not work either.
I think something is rotten in the state of Denmark and it is not the VA scandal resulting in as many as 40 deaths. I think we have a made for TV scandal that CNN initiated, and Fox, the other networks, the rest of the news media, the Republican and the Democrats have all jumped on the bandwagon. We know this: Administrators at thePhoenix VA and other VA hospitals kept secret, separate waiting lists for treating veterans, in order to pretend that they were meeting the VA's timeliness targets, and later tried to cover everything up.
Did 40 or more people really die from these scheduling issues?
I've scanned the Internet and found nobody questioning whether this is blow out of proportion. But think about it, Republicans are going to push this for everything they can get. Democrats are going to take the high road and say we must get to the source of these problems and fix them.
I think the facts will eventually sort out. I'm betting the following. The VA is a large government bureaucracy and is not the most efficient organization. In an attempt to increase efficiency, benchmark targets are established for scheduling patient visits. Cash bonuses are established for upper management employees to ensure the targets are met. The VA hospitals are competing with one another and management employees quickly figure out how they can game the system to look better compared to their peer organizations. The easiest way to game the benchmark system is not to enter all the people into the scheduling system who want an appointment. Entering everyone into the queue, increases your average wait time for an appointment.
So what about people dying who had to wait a long time for an appointment? According to Forbes, "Dozens of people—and possibly hundreds—died waiting for treatment they never received." So what illnesses did these people have and why did they not go to the emergency dept. or urgent care center that most VA hospitals have?
Another question I have is whether these veterans who died had no other way to access health care. In other words, they must not have had Medicare, Medicaid or private insurance, so there only source of hehealthares a VA Hospital. My skepticism is growing that veterans who supposedly died did not go directly to the VA, they had no other insurance and they were not able to go to another provider and have the services billed to the VA. So we have a scenario where the veteran's initial appointment was delayed and they died as a result. If this is true, we have a scandal, but I would like to see a list of these veterans and information on how they tried to access the VA system and other health providers.
1) The government owns all of the V.A.'s hospitals (153).
2) The government employs and pays all of the V.A.'s employees, including doctors.
3) The government pays for all health care and insurance.
4) The government owns and runs the program.
5) Treatment is free.
The V.A. represents pure Socialism.
Well, I hope you realize that the entire military complex is a BIGexample of socialism. The Government pays for the army, navy, etc. Pays for all the military-related equipment and all the R&D. Pays for all Army Hospitals. Pays for personnel education and training. The list goes on. Get the point?
The entire Military System (including the veterans and VA) represents pure socialism (according to your definition).
Well, I hope you realize that the entire military complex is a BIGexample of socialism. The Government pays for the army, navy, etc. Pays for all the military-related equipment and all the R&D. Pays for all Army Hospitals. Pays for personnel education and training. The list goes on. Get the point?
The entire Military System (including the veterans and VA) represents pure socialism (according to your definition).
Unlike our politicians who have gotten us into entirely unnecessary wars (like Vietnam), our armed services have certainly served America well when they have been called upon to do so. Are armed service personnel put their lives on the line to protect our interests. They certainly deserve the best appropriate care for their medical needs that we can give them, and that is the issue. They are not and have not been getting it.
The V.A.'s socialistic system is certainly not serving their medical needs in the manner that any reasonable person would expect. Rather, both the system and its bureaucrats have failed to do so in an atrocious manner. Even worse, it was all done knowingly and then covered up.
Unlike our politicians who have gotten us into entirely unnecessary wars (like Vietnam), our armed services have certainly served America well when they have been called upon to do so. Are armed service personnel put their lives on the line to protect our interests. They certainly deserve the best appropriate care for their medical needs that we can give them, and that is the issue. They are not and have not been getting it.
The V.A.'s socialistic system is certainly not serving their medical needs in the manner that any reasonable person would expect. Rather, both the system and its bureaucrats have failed to do so in an atrocious manner. Even worse, it was all done knowingly and then covered up.
I agree with what you said here. But it seems like you are dodging a bullet. I said, that the entire military complex, including VA healthcare is a part of the same socialist system that you are attacking.
So why are you singling out the VA healthcare system, while leaving out other aspects of the system? If there is an inherent flaw with socialism, then the entire army-complex should be privatized.
I agree with what you said here. But it seems like you are dodging a bullet. I said, that the entire military complex, including VA healthcare is a part of the same socialist system that you are attacking.
So why are you singling out the VA healthcare system, while leaving out other aspects of the system? If there is an inherent flaw with socialism, then the entire army-complex should be privatized.
I didn't bring the V.A. scandal to light in America, I simply referenced it when I created this thread. And the more I read about the particulars behind the scandal, the more I understand how bad the V.A.'s problems truly are.
One aspect of the V.A. scandal is that liberals have not and do not toss out the Armed Services as an example of successful socialism, yet prior to the scandal breaking out into the open they had frequently referred to the V.A.'s operation as proof that a Socialistic healthcare system would work just fine. I don't think you need a great sense of humor to understand how absurdly funny that sounds now.
The VA scandal has been pretty interesting to those of us in the healthcare field. We are essentially treated as criminals by the government when it comes to regulatory compliance with Medicare and DEA regulations, HIPAA, etc. They send inspectors who assume we're evil people scamming the system and we're guilty unless proven innocent. If there is some sort of minor discrepancy like a single checkbox checked incorrectly on one of 100,000 forms or a piece of paper with a half inch hanging out of the shred bin, penalties are very, very severe. We're talking about a $500,000+ fine per piece of paper for the end of a piece of paper hanging out of the shred bin by half an inch kind of fines (they'd claim it is a HIPAA violation because somebody could grab the half-inch end of the paper and remove it from the shred bin.) When their inspectors don't really find anything they shake their heads and still claim there's "waste, fraud, and abuse" but that we're just too good at hiding it so they didn't see it.
The fact that the very things they accuse the private healthcare industry of doing actually did occur in the VA system makes a lot of sense. They knew that was going on in the government system and their ideology is that the private sector is evil, so even worse MUST be going on in private healthcare settings. The real news flash is that they're really the only ones doing it, and it's precisely BECAUSE they are government. I personally laugh at the VA employees stating that the reason they are essentially unable to be fired is because of due process. Let me tell them that pretty well the entire rest of the country is at-will. Your superiors don't need much of a reason to let you go. The rest of us would absolutely be fired if we did what the VA people were supposed to have done, and then sued for a ridiculous amount of money and probably thrown in prison as well. Mark my words, these people will get no more than a slap on the wrist. Shinseki might resign due to bad PR and that will be the end of it. Then we'll go back to talking about the usual class warfare garbage and celebrity foibles that dominate the news.
I didn't bring the V.A. scandal to light in America, I simply referenced it when I created this thread. And the more I read about the particulars behind the scandal, the more I understand how bad the V.A.'s problems truly are.
Yes, but the VA's problems could be related to poor administration or lack of resources. What does that have to do with socialism?
If there were problems at a private hospital, would you automatically attribute that to private healthcare or capitalism? And say that capitalism or private-healthcare is bad?
There are plenty of social health care programs around the world. Some good and some bad. Similarly, there are plenty of private health care systems around the world, some good and some bad.
Yes, but the VA's problems could be related to poor administration or lack of resources. What does that have to do with socialism?
If there were problems at a private hospital, would you automatically attribute that to private healthcare or capitalism? And say that capitalism or private-healthcare is bad?
There are plenty of social health care programs around the world. Some good and some bad. Similarly, there are plenty of private health care systems around the world, some good and some bad.
The V.A. scandal is centered on corrupt bureaucrats (administration) and limited resources. Moreover, the V.A. system is a socialist system in which (as I posted previously):
1) The government owns all of the V.A.'s hospitals (153).
2) The government employs and pays all of the V.A.'s employees, including doctors.
3) The government pays for all health care and insurance.
4) The government owns and runs the program.
5) Treatment is free.
Because the government's socialist healthcare system that totally controls the V.A. could not provide our vets with timely and quality care, there is absolutely no reason to think that a one-payer system would or could work for the entirety of America.
Because the government's socialist healthcare system that totally controls the V.A. could not provide our vets with timely and quality care, there is absolutely no reason to think that a one-payer system would or could work for the entirety of America.
Apples and oranges. The VA is not a one-payer system, it's a one-supplier system. A one-payer system would be fully outsourcing the care of veterans to private care systems and the government being the single payer for it all.
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