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The designers of the flag did not say, 'hey, this is to show that whites are better than blacks'. What they did say was- 'we do not want to be part of this union with the north anymore'...
They did not want to be part of the Union any more because the Union was going to take away "their" slaves. I am a fairly careful student of history, and I know there were other issues in play, but without the conflict over slavery, there would have been no serious attempt at secession and no Civil War. I am not a liberal, but I understand the disgust that blacks have for the Confederacy as an institution - it would never have existed but for the desire to continue enslaving black people - and I won't fly the Confederate flag.
General Grant said that Southern secession (so they could keep their slaves) was one of the worst causes for which a people ever fought. That about sums it up.
American flags are seen as a symbol of empire and oppression in places around the world.
Flags are symbols. What they mean to you is your opinion.
Exactly. I'm a southerner (55 years) and have never owned a Confederate flag. I don't see myself ever buying one either. But, this flag can mean one thing to one person while something entirely to another. There is no doubt some of the people displaying this flag are racist while some are just proud it's part of their heritage.
Fighting a war for independence to keep slavery alive and kicking is more like it. I hope you inferred the "unjust" part was on those fighting for the independence and the right to keep slavery. And the independence part was more a rebellion than anything since there never was a right to secession via legally in the Constitution. The only way out was thru revolution.
Tom: I completely agree that the institution of slavery was central in every way to the American Civil War, but I think you may be looking at it through a very, very modern lens and I have considerable doubt that military rage would have sprung up around a relatively simple ethical disagreement between the Southern, agrarian states and the Northern, industrialized states. It doesn't really make sense.
Wars are fought over economy and power or the deprivation of one or the other. It's that way today and has always been.
The southern states were beginning to construct foundries and ironworks, textile mills, armories, etc. etc. It was only a matter of time before the Northern states that were heavily invested in manufacturing but short on agrarian resources would be completely unable to compete with the industrialized South utilizing a slave labor force. New York would cease to be relevant and the dominant port on the American continent would become Hampton Roads, Virginia. Richmond, VA may have turned out to be a 1st tier city that stands alongside Paris, Berlin, London, Moscow and Tokyo. This was truly a critical time in the history of the United States and there was an enormous, very heated, extremely charged standoff between opposing special interests. Congress made an attempt at legislative solutions that were viewed as extremely punitive to the Southern economy and way of life. So punitive, in fact, that it generated enough political momentum to mobilize secession, Americans went to war against Americans and one out of every four military aged males died over the next few years. It's difficult for me to really get my modern American brain around how things could get that bad, but I think that I can assure you that our ancestors didn't come to blows over a disagreement regarding the ethical considerations associated with the institution of chattel slavery as it existed in the United States over 100 years ago. It was about who was going to be making the most money going forward.
That may not be a politically correct viewpoint, but I think it's real.
Southerners claim to be the most patriotic Americans, yet when waving that flag of rebellion around I wonder if they realize the people of Charleston in December of 1860 pulled down the US flag and stomped on it in the streets as well as burned it. Don't hear Southerners talk much about that.
Southerns need to stop getting their history from the despicable liars at League Of The South.
Here is a great read from another very traditional Moderator cut: _ publication.
....... But on this and so much else, DiLorenzo is silent. In his rancid book-length indictment of Lincoln, The Real Lincoln, he favorably cites John C. Calhoun without pausing to inquire whether the South Carolinian might, perhaps, just have been a little bit racist.
The Lincoln-haters will admit slavery is wrong, but their denunciations of it have all the moral force of someone complaining about his cable bill, and considerably less passion.
This is the distorted prism through which the Lincoln-haters view everything. Lincoln is condemned in the harshest terms; his opponents and his enemies are given a pass.
The anti-Lincolnites hate that the North instituted a progressive income tax; they never bother to complain that the Confederacy did the same. They hate that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus; they never note that Jefferson Davis did, too. They hate that the North resorted to a draft; they don't care that the Confederacy also had one. They hate that Lincoln fought a war against his countrymen; it evidently never occurs to them that Jefferson Davis shot back (let alone that he fired the first shot).
It doesn't figure much in their calculations, either, that Lincoln sought the ultimate end of slavery, while Jefferson Davis wanted to preserve it. The Lincoln-haters will admit slavery is wrong, but their denunciations of it have all the moral force of someone complaining about his cable bill, and considerably less passion.
Operationally, they are pro-Confederacy. Their influence shouldn't be exaggerated. The vast majority of people will never hear of them.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 08-06-2014 at 07:56 AM..
Reason: Deleted quote and direct response to it. Removed political references
The American flag represents all American citizens. No need for any other flag at all. BUT...if you are going to needlessly add other flags, for whatever reason....then the Confederate flag is just as valid as a Gay Pride flag.
Only two flags belong on a flagpole, here in the states. The American flag and the state flag. Period.
Last edited by rainroosty; 08-06-2014 at 08:04 AM..
I don't like what it represents. It represents a society that enslaves it's citizen and it's something I can't agree with. Slavery was a large part of the Civil War, no matter how you slice that pie. I hate when people get all technical. It's like when we have companies that don't want ''regulation'' in certain countries because they have to make safer factories.
Of course, I wonder what the reaction will be if black people started wearing the flag in a large proportion. Been curious about this.
Southerners claim to be the most patriotic Americans, yet when waving that flag of rebellion around I wonder if they realize the people of Charleston in December of 1860 pulled down the US flag and stomped on it in the streets as well as burned it. Don't hear Southerners talk much about that.
Southerns need to stop getting their history from the despicable liars at League Of The South.
Here is a great read from another very traditional Moderator cut: _ publication.
....... But on this and so much else, DiLorenzo is silent. In his rancid book-length indictment of Lincoln, The Real Lincoln, he favorably cites John C. Calhoun without pausing to inquire whether the South Carolinian might, perhaps, just have been a little bit racist.
The Lincoln-haters will admit slavery is wrong, but their denunciations of it have all the moral force of someone complaining about his cable bill, and considerably less passion.
This is the distorted prism through which the Lincoln-haters view everything. Lincoln is condemned in the harshest terms; his opponents and his enemies are given a pass.
The anti-Lincolnites hate that the North instituted a progressive income tax; they never bother to complain that the Confederacy did the same. They hate that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus; they never note that Jefferson Davis did, too. They hate that the North resorted to a draft; they don't care that the Confederacy also had one. They hate that Lincoln fought a war against his countrymen; it evidently never occurs to them that Jefferson Davis shot back (let alone that he fired the first shot).
It doesn't figure much in their calculations, either, that Lincoln sought the ultimate end of slavery, while Jefferson Davis wanted to preserve it. The Lincoln-haters will admit slavery is wrong, but their denunciations of it have all the moral force of someone complaining about his cable bill, and considerably less passion.
Operationally, they are pro-Confederacy. Their influence shouldn't be exaggerated. The vast majority of people will never hear of them.
What you fail to understand is this.....
The federal government was threatening to take away legally held property, with no recompense, at gun point.
There was no federal law saying that the federal government could do that. The southern states rebelled because they knew that was coming.
We have always, since day 1, had the states rights vs. Federal rights. That was settled with the Civil war, and the Federal government won. Now people complain about a federal government thats to big. That happened in 1860 and 1861
Whyever would they do that? That would be like a Jewish person hoisting up the Nazi flag over their house. Not gonna happen.
I wonder if he didn't mean adopting and owning a symbol that has come to be perceived as a slight (or perhaps and overt insult/threat) to your culture in a similar manner to the way that American blacks have adopted and come to own a certain racial slur.
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