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This is a spin off of the thread on whether African Americans should forget Jim Crow and Slavery and just "move on".
Should the jews do this as well?
Even though they were nearly exterminated a good 60/70 years ago, should they just "forget" about it now and stop talking about it every chance they get? How about the reparations they've been receiving? Should they stop getting it now as all those people who participated in violence against them are "no longer living" like they tell blacks (who've never received any reparations or even a bag of rice)?
After this thread will we have one about whether or not the American native tribes should forget what happened to them at the hands of Europeans? And then one about whether or not the Irish should ever forget what the English did to their homeland?
All of these debates will ultimately arrive at:
A) Is the idea of reparations for the outrages of earlier generations a valid/practical one?
and
B) Is it better to look forward than to anchor yourself to the past?
There are no universally accepted answers to those questions, so I propose instead that we apply field tests. All descendants of groups who were wronged in the past will participate in a five year moratorium on remembering that past. That is five years with no finger pointing, no guilt, no excuses etc.
Then at the end of the five years, we determine if any of those people are better or worse off than they were before the moratorium and take things from there.
They should never forget, but they should also ask themselves why they were expelled from just about every nation they ever set foot in. It's like the person who says all of you have the problem, not me.
Location: The High Desert of the American Southwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marilyn220
This is a spin off of the thread on whether African Americans should forget Jim Crow and Slavery and just "move on".
Should the jews do this as well?
Even though they were nearly exterminated a good 60/70 years ago, should they just "forget" about it now and stop talking about it every chance they get? How about the reparations they've been receiving? Should they stop getting it now as all those people who participated in violence against them are "no longer living" like they tell blacks (who've never received any reparations or even a bag of rice)?
Let's discuss.
Yeah, let's discuss.
You sound pretty ignorant insofar as the normal mindset of the Jewish people in America is concerned.
My 2nd ex-wife is Jewish; we were married for 7 years and so I of course spent a good deal of time with her family, friends and also people from her Synagogue (she was a Reformed Jew, and her parents were basically Orthodox).
My oldest and best friend, from back in my Navy submarine days, is a Jewish attorney working for the Dept., if Health & Human Services in Chicago. I too spent many many hours over the years with he and his Jewish friends and family.
My track coach in college was Jewish; he also taught a class on the Judaism in Religion that I took, and there were many Jews in that class and we again spent many hours in debate and discussion.
The common thread that runs through all these acquaintances of mine? As well as the myriad discussions we've had about their peoples' history?
Not one of them wined or complained or demanded any sort of recompense due to their plight. Not even close to the level that many blacks in our country do. In fact most of them never even mentioned the Holocaust; I usually had to bring it up in order to get their thoughts on the subject.
True, most of them remembered where they came form and were proud of their heritage, but no more so than any others of us.
Even though they were nearly exterminated a good 60/70 years ago, should they just "forget" about it now and stop talking about it every chance they get?
Exterminated? Doesn't the United States alone have the 2nd largest number of Jews on the planet?
I've always wondered, why do Jews reserve the right to call that specific experience "the holocaust"? There have been lots of "holocausts" throughout the history of the planet. Therefore, a more appropriate term for it would be "the Jewish holocaust".
You sound pretty ignorant insofar as the normal mindset of the Jewish people in America is concerned.
My 2nd ex-wife is Jewish; we were married for 7 years and so I of course spent a good deal of time with her family, friends and also people from her Synagogue (she was a Reformed Jew, and her parents were basically Orthodox).
My oldest and best friend, from back in my Navy submarine days, is a Jewish attorney working for the Dept., if Health & Human Services in Chicago. I too spent many many hours over the years with he and his Jewish friends and family.
My track coach in college was Jewish; he also taught a class on the Judaism in Religion that I took, and there were many Jews in that class and we again spent many hours in debate and discussion.
The common thread that runs through all these acquaintances of mine? As well as the myriad discussions we've had about their peoples' history?
Not one of them wined or complained or demanded any sort of recompense due to their plight. Not even close to the level that many blacks in our country do. In fact most of them never even mentioned the Holocaust; I usually had to bring it up in order to get their thoughts on the subject.
True, most of them remembered where they came form and were proud of their heritage, but no more so than any others of us.
Well perhaps many Jewish "Americans" felt no need to "whine" about the Holocaust because they were in the United States and spared direct victimization from the Nazis and their sympathizers in other countries. Much in the same way the descendants of the small number African "American" slaves who remained loyal to the British crown (and fought for them) then were subsequently evacuated to Nova Scotia or London have never had any moral or legal grounds from which to sit in Canada or Sierra Leone "whining" about compensation from the United States.
However, you better believe that Germany has been held HIGHLY responsible for the provision of reparations to the victims of the Holocaust. These reparations are still being expanded and paid up to this today.
And the location of the survivors is immaterial. A third of the recipients live in Israel. Interesting quote from the article:
"We are seeing Germany's continued commitment to fulfill its historic obligation to Nazi victims," said Stuart Eizenstat, a former United States ambassador who acted as chief negotiator for the Claims Conference. "This ensures that Holocaust survivors, now in their final years, can be confident that we are endeavoring to help them live in dignity, after their early life was filled with indescribable tragedy and trauma. This is all the more impressive since it comes at a time of budget austerity in Germany."
Ah, if only such as statesman existed in the U.S. on behalf of elderly slaves in the 1910s-20s. Instead, that was the height of the implementation of Jim Crow, anti-black race riots, and lynchings! It is preposterous that the grounds for reparations is even debated. Reparations for African Americans would no longer be discussed if the former Confederate States of America had been required to pay reparations to blacks as a condition for readmission. Instead, the curiously opposite strategy was employed to return to coddling Southern states and cow-towing to Southern Congressmen until they regained the same obstructionist powers they possessed prior to the Civil War. With the majority of population growth taking place in the South and apportionment now favoring states such as Texas, Florida, Georgia, Arizona, North Carolina, etc., I can envision another "Civil Rights Movement" occurring in the 2060s. So that would make it the 1860s, 1960s, and 2060s that the United States will have to deal with an issue that could have been solved along time ago.
Instead of most white Americans being happy for the contributions of African Americans, they are despised. The reason why the United States has never had to pay reparations is because the United States has never lost a war to a greater power that would force us to pay them. African Americans have fought and aided in every victory since the Revolution and have perpetually championed the upholding of Civil Rights for ALL Americans. If the British had not been so full of themselves and actually expanded and enforced the Lord Dunmore and Philipsburg Proclamations unfortunately there may not even be a United States to even speak of.
So let's not get to ahead of ourselves in putting Jewish American piety on a pedestal. While to be sure, Jewish AMERICANS have not had to "whine" about their treatment, the picture elsewhere in the Diaspora is not so rosy:
So Hombre, my advice is to not let Jewish acceptance into America's white "country club" fool you into thinking it is a cause to start licking each other's popsicles in celebration. For the Jewish Diaspora, the struggle is real!
Excuse me? In my experience, Jews do not at all talk about the Holocaust "every chance they get." They generally only talk about it occasionally in connection with relevant things like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or neo-Nazi rallies. Unlike African-Americans, they don't tend to mention it as an excuse for problems or in terms of general discrimination. I don't believe that Jews as a whole received any reparation from the United States, either. Of course, African-Americans did have, if not compensatory payments, at least had some problems to specifically benefit them in the U.S. The "forty acres and a mule," affirmative action, etc.), which Jews probably did not.
It's not just the Jews that went to concentration camps, gays, gypsies, Slavs, and Jehovah's witnesses also.
Here is a little known fact that most in the US are not familiar with, the group that was even worse than the nazis, the Ustashi ran the most brutal concentration camp ever, Jasenovic, in the Balkans where Jews, Orthodox Serbs, gypsies and Roma were killed in the most brutal ways imaginable. The Ustashi was run by the Jesuits, cardinal Stepinac of Zagreb was the highest ranking member of the Catholic Church to be convicted of a war crime.
This is a spin off of the thread on whether African Americans should forget Jim Crow and Slavery and just "move on".
Should the jews do this as well?
Even though they were nearly exterminated a good 60/70 years ago, should they just "forget" about it now and stop talking about it every chance they get? How about the reparations they've been receiving? Should they stop getting it now as all those people who participated in violence against them are "no longer living" like they tell blacks (who've never received any reparations or even a bag of rice)?
Let's discuss.
No. PEOPLE. Jewish or not, should not "just forget about the Holocaust" and "move on". As human beings we should not forget about any horrific and brutal crimes against humility.
And, the Jews were not the only Holocaust victims. Certai other groups were also included. As was humanity, as a whole.
As Americans, we should not "just forget about" slavery or Jim Crow laws, either.
Not only Africa Americans - ALL Americans! ALL HUMAN BEINGS.
Why would we want to forget inglorious history? Or sweep it under the rug?
If your family was abusive, "sweeping under the rug" is unhealthy and might lead to a repeat in a second or third generation of abusive families.
People who do not want to remember and embrace history, are doomed to repeat it.
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