In retrospect, was creating Israel a bad idea? (military, Jesus, cost)
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Palestinians can never have peace when they ceaselessly seek the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews.
Why is that?
It may be their ignoble abandonment of their lands at the behest of the Muslim "brothers" who invaded back in 1948, which backfired on them. Not only were they shown up as lousy incompetent tacticians and warriors, their ancestor's sale of crapland backfired when the Jews transformed the land into a bountiful garden. Now, they really lost face - lousy incompetent farmers, as well. Can't have that!
Islam cannot be shown to be backward, slovenly, and destructive of civilization.
The only choice they have is to incessantly seek to destroy their foe, who has exposed them to ridicule.
It is the will of Allah.
...
It is an insult to Islam for Muslims to be shown up as lousy, incompetent farmers AND lousy, incompetent warriors.
Solution: Destroy Israel!
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Why BHO sent back the bust of Winston Churchill:
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
"The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
"A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."
100% agreed. I can see why the Arabs and Muslims seethe with rage at Israel's existence. Israel, in its short period of existence, has grown into a thriving vibrant and technologically advanced country.
Meanwhile, the rest of the Arab world stagnates and contributes nothing to the world besides violence, petty tribalism, and that barbarian religious cult called Islam. Moderator cut: language In fact, they should just give all their lands up to the Israelis since they would put it to much better use than the Arabs ever could.
YES. It was a very bad idea. It should have been created as a nation for all religions.
Zionism is murdering innocent people and has tainted and murdered true real Judaism in the process. It has become and led to an oppressed people becoming oppressors themselves.
It has divided up people by religion and has gotten other nations involved. It would be nice if USA government and other governments and powers that fund and support Israel didn't meddle into and help fund the conflict.
Israel is a welfare state!
Last edited by SobreTodo; 10-05-2014 at 09:23 AM..
Official documents released in April 2013 by the State Archive of Israel show that days before the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948, Jewish officials were still debating about what the new country would be called in Arabic: Palestine (Filastin), Zion (Sayoun) or Israel (Eesra’il). Two assumptions were made: "That an Arab state was about to be established alongside the Jewish one in keeping with the UN’s partition resolution the year before, and that the Jewish state would include a large Arab minority whose feelings needed to be taken into account". In the end, the officials rejected the name Palestine because they thought that would be the name of the new Arab state and could cause confusion so they opted for the most straightforward option: Israel.
Had Israel never been created, The West would still have conflict with Islam. There are hundreds of millions of Islamists who want nothing more than to kill every unbeliever (non-believer).
My memory is a bit vague on some of this - college was quite a while ago. If I get some of this wrong, please correct me.
First, you need to understand the Islamic concept of Infidel, the rough translation of the Islamic notion of kafir or kufr from the 7th century. There are two types of people in this world: believers and unbelievers. Unbelievers are to be converted or annihilated. There is no common ground. There can be no common ground. Islam cannot co-exist in peace with Infidels. We in the West have a hard time internalizing this - True Islamists must convert or kill all Infidels.
An Infidel (kufr) is someone who does one or more of the following:
practices idolatry
does not believe in One True Absolute God
does not accept Muhammad as Prophet
does not believe evidence or signs of God
does not believe in resurrection & final judgment
So, you can see, Islam is about being the Thought Police.
Jews are Infidels because Jews disbelieve certain evidence of God (as believed by Islamists)
Christians are Infidels because Christians believe in the Holy Trinity (rather than One True Absolute God)
Sunni consider Shia to be Infidels because of arcane reasons
Wahhabists consider some Shia and some Sunni to be Infidels
Various smaller sects consider other sects Infidel because of various arcane reasons
Currently in the Middle East, we read press reports of a "civil war in Iraq" between Sunni and Shia. Characterizing this as a civil war is a western artifact. It would be more accurate to characterize this as a RELIGIOUS war.
Much has been written about Islam's order to kill Infidels, citing the Qu'ran and various other early texts:
Your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes"
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of God, He will not send their works astray.
And, of course, Conversion is always an option:
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) , and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
One can conclude that even Jews could avoid annihilation by merely converting to Islam. I certainly wonder if this is really true.
At the end of the day, I just do not see a scenario whereby if Israel had never come into existence that the Islamists of the world would hold hands with the West and sing in perfect harmony. 1971 called, and they want their Coca-Cola commercial back.
Last edited by Retired at 44; 10-05-2014 at 09:34 AM..
Had Israel never been created, The West would still have conflict with Islam. There are hundreds of millions of Islamists who want nothing more than to kill every unbeliever (non-believer).
My memory is a bit vague on some of this - college was quite a while ago. If I get some of this wrong, please correct me.
First, you need to understand the Islamic concept of Infidel, the rough translation of the Islamic notion of kafir or kufr from the 7th century. There are two types of people in this world: believers and unbelievers. Unbelievers are to be converted or annihilated. There is no common ground. There can be no common ground. Islam cannot co-exist in peace with Infidels. We in the West have a hard time internalizing this - True Islamists must convert or kill all Infidels.
An Infidel (kufr) is someone who does one or more of the following:
practices idolatry
does not believe in One True Absolute God
does not accept Muhammad as Prophet
does not believe evidence or signs of God
does not believe in resurrection & final judgment
So, you can see, Islam is about being the Thought Police.
Jews are Infidels because Jews disbelieve certain evidence of God (as believed by Islamists)
Christians are Infidels because Christians believe in the Holy Trinity (rather than One True Absolute God)
Sunni consider Shia to be Infidels because of arcane reasons
Wahhabists consider some Shia and some Sunni to be Infidels
Various smaller sects consider other sects Infidel because of various arcane reasons
Currently in the Middle East, we read press reports of a "civil war in Iraq" between Sunni and Shia. Characterizing this as a civil war is a western artifact. It would be more accurate to characterize this as a RELIGIOUS war.
Much has been written about Islam's order to kill Infidels, citing the Qu'ran and various other early texts:
Your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes"
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of God, He will not send their works astray.
And, of course, Conversion is always an option:
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) , and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
One can conclude that even Jews could avoid annihilation by merely converting to Islam. I certainly wonder if this is really true.
At the end of the day, I just do not see a scenario whereby if Israel had never come into existence that the Islamists of the world would hold hands with the West and sing in perfect harmony. 1971 called, and they want their Coca-Cola commercial back.
And what about the fact that Jews killed Jesus and the Talmud has some texts and doctrines that are anti Christian?
Every religion has glaring aspects of problematic views and ideologies. All religions have been used to harbor and spread hate throughout history.
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I think all of the 3 main Abrahamic faiths have their hypocrisies and flaws and problematic ideologies and beliefs and antagonistic views and clashing divides between each other.
No it wasn't. After the slaughter of 6 million of their people in the most despicable ways one can imagine they have their state and contribute to society unlike others in the region.
Their there and not going anywhere...the past is the past and to me there is no debate on this issue. If one wants to talk about things that happened 1000 years ago fine. But it's 2015 and time for progression..something other people in that
region refuse to do.
Isreal wouldn't last one month without the billions of $ of aid that we send them each month, and the dozesn of nukes that we GAVE them
the jews tried to come here, after WW2, and we turned them away. If the Arabs had any sense, they'd pay each Jew a million $ to move to S. America or Asia. :-) It would cost them much less in the end, and the money just flows out of the ground, so why not end the problem? Then THEY can fight with the Palestinians, and the Palestinians can find out just how good they've had it under the Jews.
And what about the fact that Jews killed Jesus and the Talmud has some texts and doctrines that are anti Christian?
Every religion has glaring aspects of problematic views and ideologies. All religions have been used to harbor and spread hate throughout history.
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I think all of the 3 main Abrahamic faiths have their hypocrisies and flaws and problematic ideologies and beliefs and antagonistic views and clashing divides between each other.
So what? The Jews and Christians have for, all intents and purposes, moved on from their violent pasts.
Almost every Judeo-Christian dominated country now at least makes an effort to promote scientific thought, innovations, free-thinking, freedom of speech, and tolerance for others.
OTOH, Islamic/Arab culture is still stuck in their 7th century barbarian, dogmatic & intolerant ways. Islam does not allow for any reform or change, most Muslims today consider the Koran as the "perfect book" and Muhammad as the "perfect person" so not only are they refusing to adapt and change for the modern era, they are actually regressing backwards.
Stop trying to deflect whats happening right here and right now by pointing to events that happened hundreds/thousands of years ago as justification for Islamic violence and barbarism. Any religion that is ACTIVELY promoting violence and gross oppression in the name of God needs to be designated as a dangerous cult and curtailed.
That religion today is not Christianity or Judaism, it is ISLAM. End of story.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Most Evangelical Protestants support Israel because they believe that in order for Jesus to return there must be Jews in Israel. If you ever listen to Christian radio stations you'll hear tons of pro Israel propaganda
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