Let's not place our soldiers on a pedestal (Putin, drug, Afghanistan)

[VJDAY81445]

Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy

Excellent commentary, totally agree on all his points. While his negative experiences are with military family, he is correct about this entitlement mentality and coddling of the military.

Let's not place our soldiers on a pedestal - Newsday

A POINT TO REMEMBER................the loud mouth woman was not in the military .
She was a spouse of a serviceman.

I don't like to dish out ....."guilt by association".....and start criticizing a serviceman because of comments by his wife.

[blktoptrvl]

I may get impatient when I am behind an old man in a car dottering along the road - ten miles below the limit. But if I see a WWII Vet plate on that car, I will just chill and wait for an opportunity to get past.

Likewise, was my feeling is that when Military families were under great strain - with one or both parents being redeployed over and over to a ill-conceived war, I supported them the best I could. Often by filling gas tanks at filling stations. I could not tell who was rich or poor, but I felt that if the family was packed in a car - with all their stuff, there was a good chance they were probably going somewhere maybe they really didn't want to go.

I felt the military was being greatly abused.

But after a while, on many boards I visit, I would see this "Military Elitism" growing. People losing arguments would play the "I served, what have YOU done for your country" card. My response was... "I do all that I am required to and more; I pay my taxes, I vote, and I don't commit any crimes." But that wasn't good enough for many.

Soon, there were arguments being made that:

• you should not be able to vote in the US unless you served
• you have no place to criticize the war if you didn't serve
• we should only elect veterans
• if you don't support our warriors (and therefore the illegal war), you are a coward and traitor.
• and my favorites - military families should be able to get "section 8" style benefits so they could live, shop, go to school, etc... in any neighborhood they want.

Like most things the sympathy and kindness demonstrated grew out of control.
Nobody should be put on a pedestal - it goes to too many of their heads.

[phantompilot]

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

Things are more interconnected than you think. Evil is the problem, and peace is prefered, but sometimes war IS the answer...

Soldiers desrerve our respect for what they do on our behalf, not adualation, but simple dignified respect.

True, but these wars and conflicts are 100% created by our own government.

Since we have an all-volunteer military it strikes me as unseemly to place them on a pedestal - particularly if the accolade is a result of military conflict.

Not only did nobody ask them to enlist but nobody (no citizen) asked them to get involved in any of these conflicts.

The American public doesn't make any "market" for war. If all wars were financed by donations, would there be any? Ask yourself that question honestly and answer it honestly and you will see that even if you personally support a specific instance warfare, you would still have to concede that not enough OTHER people do, for that to be enabled.

But since governments create wars, and governments are financed by theft (confiscation of money in the guise of "tax" - its the same thing so please don't quibble over the terminology - it will be a fruitless conversation), the mere fact there are "funds" for warfare is not any proof that anyone actually wanted it (Except for those few elites whose motives are often quite inscrutable but usually disguised in some cloak of national moral duty or other such nonsense designed to appeal to emotions and patriotism).

To sum up: if war were put to a popular vote, there would be none. If war were financed by voluntary payments, there would be none.

So given those fundamental aspects of military conflict, it is my conclusion that the "putting on a pedestal" action is accrued to military "service" that was largely not done for the legitimate causes for which justification is easy and simple: the basic defense/miitary deterrence against aggression to our national homeland.

When was the last time we fought in defense? I see the issue as being a direct result of several factors:

1. military fetishism
2. a decline in cognition/intellect of the public - Americans have become less thoughtful/intelligent/educated
3. An increase in the entitlement mentality. Not just "american exceptionalism" but entitlement of moral authority - a tendency to be meddlers and high-handed.
4. we have also lost control of our government. That's been a long time now, of course, since the last time the government was truly doing what "the people" wanted. But this lack of control gets worse by the day.

[Caleb Longstreet]

Its funny, we have this pendulum swing on the military about every generation. When I was in during the Carter years we were flat out despised pretty much every where we went. It was post Viet Nam and America was thoroughly sick of the Military. We were taught to keep a very low profile and basically never leave or roam without a friend. Not in all locales just most.

Fast forward to 1990/Gulf Storm. America couldn't waive enough flags. The irony being is that in the 70's, we knew all too well (hostage crisis in Tehran) that there was a delicate balance between Iran and Iraq. it was commonly known and viewed that if we kept Iran and Iraq at each other's throats, we would have a reasonably stable middle east. They had spent the better part of a decade killing off about 1,000,000 of their own in a senseless war. Iraq was our ALLIES in 1980. We trained their Air-Traffic Controllers stateside.

However, by 2003, we had apparently forgotten that. We sacked Sadam and Iran began to rise as the dominate power as predicted and right on time. Now, the middle east is in free fall. This is something Liberals never understand. That cumbaya is fine and all until the one side or the other gets a toe hold. It was actually SAFER back then than today.

Lesson? We had 20 years of dripping patriotism which I, along with anyone I served with can appreciate but, the pendulum has started to swing back. While I believe we can and should trim the military budget I do think that above all, we need to honor those that serve. For those that would criticize it, I ask them to enlist and fall in. Come back and tell me what you think AFTER that episode.

However, I ALSO think that not everyone that serves was a "hero". For every guy you see on TV running with a ridiculously overloaded backpack, I'll show you 9 soldiers in the "rear with the gear". Cooks, supply clerks, logistic types not even in country. Much like myself. I liken my experience to that which could be viewed in the funny movie, "Sgt. Bilko". I was much, much, much more like him and perhaps Gomer Pyle than I ever was Rambo.

I'm willing to bet that 90% of those that serve are pretty much like I was too. No matter, we do need a standing army and all that support is necessary. Let's just don't throw ticker tape parades for those that "deployed" in the "harsh" environment of a fire base or Germany, or Italy or wherever where like me, the biggest risk was bad beer. Please. We are NOT all heroes. Some of us just enlisted and never thought past that.

I do tip my hat to any and ALL in uniform when they pass through the airport and on numerous occasions offer to buy them a coke or simply hand a few in the gates waiting on flights the same. Try it sometime. I believe you will feel good after you do and it will only take you a minute or two. I think it important to acknowledge them but, you don't have to kiss their assets. They don't expect you to and for the jackass that "demanded" a discount please ignore him/her. Most of us were NEVER EVER like that and it's embarrassing to hear someone in uniform is.

We served. Quietly. Good enough. To all those fallen you hold a sacred place. Same for all those that were in theater and had bullets tossed their way or, those that served a career like my brother. For all those that were bored to tears, welcome to the club. We served, we went home, life moved on.

Thank God we don't have d-bags trying to routinely rip them off or a-holes publicly yelling and spitting at them and I pray TO God we don't have many who think they are Chesty Puller while quietly handing out Beans, Bullets, and Bandaids off a C-130?
I think the honor lies somewhere between a humble and sincere acknowledgement from the public and quiet dignity and humility from those serving....somewhere in the middle is probably the right mix.

It's honorable to serve but, don't become like those that made a career out of being "Pearl Harbor Survivors". There are thousands that would change places with you if they could. Serve quietly, with distinction if necessary but, when you get out, move on. The majority of us do.

[openmike]

YWe are a reluctant waring culture and the largest army in the world is the US civilian armed population. This fact suggests that at the very least we form a potential militia that could greatly support local law to in an extreme scenario would battle insurgence in US or contol marshal law and anarchy ( like the
outcome of a grid disaster as an ecample). Then we will get a taste of warlike conditions our fighting men and women exper-
ience?

[VJDAY81445]

Actually, when I think back, several people cam up to me during the Vietnam era and thanked me for my service.
It usually was followed by................" I was in the Navy also years back . Can you spare $10 so this old sailor can get a meal"?

Patriotic panhandlers !

[prospectheightsresident]

Military appreciation should be the norm in my view, and something that I always try to show. This is so because of the sacrifices that military servicemen and woman make every day in safeguarding our liberties. Still, I think that anyone who is being shown respect by others should have the humility to give it back. And demanding respect is not humble. Having written that, most military service members and their families that I've come across are more than humble and appreciative and do not make a fuss about taking advantage of perks offered to them. In fact, just as one example, it is extremely rare that I've seen a "military service member in uniform" actually board first on a flight when offered.

[armory]

Something that gets me is the number of programs/organizations that extend to families of soldiers abroad. My dad was a VN vet and suffered radiation poisoning which killed him and everyone else assigned to the particular detail. We got no benefits for him being a disabled vet and no one reached out to us as they do today. The government has yet to acknowledge the incident in question ever occurred.
VN vets were disdained for the most part - what the US does now is far worse than what it did in the 60s. They sent drafted boys into the jungles to die back then. They send grown men into the desert to die today. They also use technology like drones and smart bombs which kill from 1000's of miles away. I am waiting for something nuclear to happen.

[Tuck's Dad]

Originally Posted by phantompilot

True, but these wars and conflicts are 100% created by our own government.

Since we have an all-volunteer military it strikes me as unseemly to place them on a pedestal - particularly if the accolade is a result of military conflict.

Not only did nobody ask them to enlist but nobody (no citizen) asked them to get involved in any of these conflicts.

You have a very different understanding of international conflicts and their impacts on world stability, a representative government and it's function to represent the individual citizens en mass, and the obligation of individual citizenship than I do.

Originally Posted by phantompilot

The American public doesn't make any "market" for war. If all wars were financed by donations, would there be any? Ask yourself that question honestly and answer it honestly and you will see that even if you personally support a specific instance warfare, you would still have to concede that not enough OTHER people do, for that to be enabled.

But since governments create wars, and governments are financed by theft (confiscation of money in the guise of "tax" - its the same thing so please don't quibble over the terminology - it will be a fruitless conversation), the mere fact there are "funds" for warfare is not any proof that anyone actually wanted it (Except for those few elites whose motives are often quite inscrutable but usually disguised in some cloak of national moral duty or other such nonsense designed to appeal to emotions and patriotism).

To sum up: if war were put to a popular vote, there would be none. If war were financed by voluntary payments, there would be none.

The government's role is to provide required services that can't be adequately addressed in the free market. One of those functions is raising and provisioning an Army and a Navy; lighthouses, post roads, and a judicial/legal system are other things the government provides that a market would not adequately address. Don't confuse "no market" with "no need" they are very different.

Your concept that taxes are theft is simplistic and innacurate. While I agree we are over taxed, and I also agree the government spends far to much on wrong headed priorities (doubt we would agree on the specifics of the spending, but suspect we do agree too much is spent), the citizens do have an obligation to fund through taxes, tariffs, or fees the required functions of a government that provides the services needed for safety, order, and the protection of the citizens and their rights.

The wars we have recently fought (and are still fighting to some extent) have been put to a vote, and congress has authorized those wars. Congress authorizing the use of military force against a nation vs. a statement of "we declare war" really is a quibble over terminology.

Originally Posted by phantompilot

So given those fundamental aspects of military conflict, it is my conclusion that the "putting on a pedestal" action is accrued to military "service" that was largely not done for the legitimate causes for which justification is easy and simple: the basic defense/miitary deterrence against aggression to our national homeland.

See my comments below.

Originally Posted by phantompilot

When was the last time we fought in defense? I see the issue as being a direct result of several factors:

1. military fetishism
2. a decline in cognition/intellect of the public - Americans have become less thoughtful/intelligent/educated
3. An increase in the entitlement mentality. Not just "american exceptionalism" but entitlement of moral authority - a tendency to be meddlers and high-handed.
4. we have also lost control of our government. That's been a long time now, of course, since the last time the government was truly doing what "the people" wanted. But this lack of control gets worse by the day.

World War II was our last conflict that actually had our existence as a nation in the balance, although with nuclear proliferation in Pakistan, India, N Korea, and in the relative near term Iran (which will quickly be followed by other middle eastern nations), the concept of war for national survival is undergoing a paradigm shift.

When Bush left office, we were essentially an occupying force in Iraq and Afghanistan, allied with Pakistan and Turkey, with military installations in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Regardless of how you feel about the recent wars, or how you feel about Bush (or Obama, for that matter), if you look at a map you will notice an extremely effective containment strategy via American troop deployment of a potential nuclear power with regional, if not world wide power aspirations. Nuclear weapons with a delivery system are game changers in international affairs and the type and length of a conflict.

Finally, we are an empire, although no one in political office will state it that clearly. Wars of empires are always wars of influence, not wars for survival, so you get weird results with unintended second and third order effects, however, that is not a soldier's issue, that is a political issue. I agree that the government ceased to be responsive to the populace a long time ago, but that is a different discussion in a different thread.

[mainebrokerman]

Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet

Its funny, we have this pendulum swing on the military about every generation. When I was in during the Carter years we were flat out despised pretty much every where we went. It was post Viet Nam and America was thoroughly sick of the Military. We were taught to keep a very low profile and basically never leave or roam without a friend. Not in all locales just most.

Fast forward to 1990/Gulf Storm. America couldn't waive enough flags. The irony being is that in the 70's, we knew all too well (hostage crisis in Tehran) that there was a delicate balance between Iran and Iraq. it was commonly known and viewed that if we kept Iran and Iraq at each other's throats, we would have a reasonably stable middle east. They had spent the better part of a decade killing off about 1,000,000 of their own in a senseless war. Iraq was our ALLIES in 1980. We trained their Air-Traffic Controllers stateside.

However, by 2003, we had apparently forgotten that. We sacked Sadam and Iran began to rise as the dominate power as predicted and right on time. Now, the middle east is in free fall. This is something Liberals never understand. That cumbaya is fine and all until the one side or the other gets a toe hold. It was actually SAFER back then than today.

Lesson? We had 20 years of dripping patriotism which I, along with anyone I served with can appreciate but, the pendulum has started to swing back. While I believe we can and should trim the military budget I do think that above all, we need to honor those that serve. For those that would criticize it, I ask them to enlist and fall in. Come back and tell me what you think AFTER that episode.

However, I ALSO think that not everyone that serves was a "hero". For every guy you see on TV running with a ridiculously overloaded backpack, I'll show you 9 soldiers in the "rear with the gear". Cooks, supply clerks, logistic types not even in country. Much like myself. I liken my experience to that which could be viewed in the funny movie, "Sgt. Bilko". I was much, much, much more like him and perhaps Gomer Pyle than I ever was Rambo.

I'm willing to bet that 90% of those that serve are pretty much like I was too. No matter, we do need a standing army and all that support is necessary. Let's just don't throw ticker tape parades for those that "deployed" in the "harsh" environment of a fire base or Germany, or Italy or wherever where like me, the biggest risk was bad beer. Please. We are NOT all heroes. Some of us just enlisted and never thought past that.

I do tip my hat to any and ALL in uniform when they pass through the airport and on numerous occasions offer to buy them a coke or simply hand a few in the gates waiting on flights the same. Try it sometime. I believe you will feel good after you do and it will only take you a minute or two. I think it important to acknowledge them but, you don't have to kiss their assets. They don't expect you to and for the jackass that "demanded" a discount please ignore him/her. Most of us were NEVER EVER like that and it's embarrassing to hear someone in uniform is.

We served. Quietly. Good enough. To all those fallen you hold a sacred place. Same for all those that were in theater and had bullets tossed their way or, those that served a career like my brother. For all those that were bored to tears, welcome to the club. We served, we went home, life moved on.

Thank God we don't have d-bags trying to routinely rip them off or a-holes publicly yelling and spitting at them and I pray TO God we don't have many who think they are Chesty Puller while quietly handing out Beans, Bullets, and Bandaids off a C-130?
I think the honor lies somewhere between a humble and sincere acknowledgement from the public and quiet dignity and humility from those serving....somewhere in the middle is probably the right mix.

It's honorable to serve but, don't become like those that made a career out of being "Pearl Harbor Survivors". There are thousands that would change places with you if they could. Serve quietly, with distinction if necessary but, when you get out, move on. The majority of us do.

great post!!

I've got to throw this out....you used the term dripping patriotism...

for me, it was president Reagan, that made me proud to be an American, he spoke of freedoms, sacrifices, possibilities and opportunities...
unlike other presidents from that seem to only focus on whats wrong with the u.s. and apologize around the world for being an American...

I had family members in all the wars....as kids we would go to cemeteries with the adults to place flowers on their graves...when we went id notice all the flags and other people doing the same

then I would see on tv the anti - American/military liberals wanting to spit on the soldiers that lived and came home ...
I couldn't understand, why our men/soldiers were being sent to other countries to die for THEIR freedoms, then come home to get spit on....

in high school, I was a rebellious one too...Reagan was president, but we had an old teacher, a vet, that loved him,,
in our current events social studies class...
he asked that we watch Reagan speeches, and how he has led this country to a new patriotism,,,, I was too young to realize it,,,but as he said, the vets that came back from v.n. were mistreated,,and shamed,,IT WAS WRONG!
and this country will try to vindicate itself one day by cheering on our brave soldiers....
and he was right...