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Is it beginning to sound a little ridiculous to you now?
The way you've interpreted it, Husky Mama, not only sounds a "little ridiculous." It sounds nearly as "delusional" and "dangerous" as drinking yourself to death. Yikes.
The good news is that it works for many and no one has to do it if they don't want to. It's free, voluntary and all Steps are optional.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-04-2015 at 08:52 AM..
Reason: Removed icon
The way you've interpreted it, Husky Mama, not only sounds a "little ridiculous." It sounds nearly as "delusional" and "dangerous" as drinking yourself to death. Yikes.
The good news is that it works for many and no one has to do it if they don't want to. It's free, voluntary and all Steps are optional.
See, the whole free, voluntary, optional, "God of your understanding" stuff is just to get you in the door.
Ultimately, it comes down to the the God of Bill Wilson's understanding. But they need to break a person down first. Get them believing in their powerless and defectiveness, in the "disease" they have, and can never be cured of.
AA works.... until it doesn't.
After all the programming, all the insistence that alcohol is stronger than they are, that one drink is too much, jails, institutions and death will most likely be the fate of those who leave the group and drink again, that if they stop going to meetings, they will most certainly drink... when AA members relapse, it's generally not a little slip.
AA works hard on conditioning people to believe they can't control themselves, that the disease doing push ups in the parking lot will consume them if they leave...
Many members attribute relapse binges to having stopped going to meetings and stopped working the steps. No, they relapse because they've had it pounded into their heads that constant adherence to the steps is crucial to their continued sobriety. They end up convinced they can't stay sober without meetings and steps.
Funny thing, if you can de-program from that way of thinking and manage to trust in yourself again, you can not only remain sober, if you wish, you can drink in moderation if you choose, because you realize the idea that alcoholics are diseased and defective is bunk.
Millions of people have actually helped themselves to end their dangerous drinking habits, without a single meeting, without needing this group and these steps to maintain their sanity.
Most people age out of heavy drinking. Or they quit or cut back on doctor's advice, or a spousal ultimatum. People whose drinking would be considered alcoholic by many. But, somehow, without going to meetings the rest of their lives and recruiting others to the group, they just get themselves together. Some with psych help, some without, but without AA.
For anyone struggling with a drinking problem, I would heartily suggest you look into other options where you and your power to change your life yourself are respected.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-04-2015 at 08:53 AM..
Reason: Edited quote
There are many ignorant posts in this thread. Amazingly , on the internet , there are all kinds of lies like this thread.
I just want say , like was mentioned above, the 12 steps work if you work em". They are amazing, if you work them. AA can be amazing and wonderful for some people and God can do for some people what they cannot do for themselves. I would say this is pretty amazing! Like others said above AA can save peoples' lives. One more thing, not everybody drinking like an alcoholic needs to hit a physical bottom, lose their house and family, go to jail, etc. There is also spiritual bottoms people can hit - feeling alienated from God, and ashamed of themselves.
Please don't judge something unless you have gone through it. Same with AA, if you work the steps and get a sponsor and go to meetings, and it doesn't work you can criticize it. But, if not, please don't , and remember it may only work for some, but it has saved peoples' lives, families, health, and resulted in miracles for people!
You are just parroting AA jargon which has no basis in the reality that only 5% of AAer's remain sober through the program over many years. Literally, over 90% of people who do AA do not remain sober over the long haul. Chastising addicts for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and being "willing" to be sober everyday is as bad as blaming people who are gravely ill for their own condition. AA is just as bad as any Americanism of blaming people for their own problems and asking themselves to take responsibility for their own actions. But the true nature of addiction negates "willingness", stupid.
Someone who wants to quit drinking shouldn't have to "hit bottom" and nearly die many times or risk ending up in jail for the rest of their life just to get sober. But this is the problem with AA.
And many people do stay sober off of the fellowship. I think those people aren't even true alcoholics at all. But many true addicts/alcoholics are violently antisocial misanthropes who no one wants to hang around. And many AAers are downright annoying, patronizing as well as being highly judgemental and hypocritical.
If your only solution to a problem is praying to God it get's better, it isn't the greatest solution in the world. Imagine having a car that needs tons of maintenance and only praying it gets fixed by God on it's own. How stupid would that be? Religion and spirituality are often an opiates of the poor because the downtrodden are made to believe that they will inherit the earth one day. This is why there is a storefront church for every liquor store in every American inner city area to keep poor people desperate, beaten down and living on their knees.
AA should be about building people's self-esteem, not telling them they are hopeless and powerless. But AAer's, who are most likely not even true alcoholics themselves, rather tell alcoholics that they are failures for not being one of the 5% AA success stories.
Ultimately, cheerleading for the few AA success stories is harmful for society. If there was a safe pill to curb alcoholic and opiate cravings, America would be a much safer, peaceful place with much less tragedy. Big pharma would actually make a righteous multibillion dollar industry instead of getting people hooked on prescription opiates like they have been doing to usher in a new suburban heroin epidemic thanks to an all-time high in international opiate production as a result of the American invasion of Afghanistan and falling drug production prices in Latin America. But king alcohol and queen heroin would lose billions of dollars annually if there ever was a safe pill to curb alcohol and opiate cravings. This is why that pill doesn't exist. Just like how a water fueled car has been designed and could be marketed, yet would never be mass produced and marketed to the masses because petroleum is also a huge trillion dollar industry.
I'm not parroting anything. I'm speaking from first hand knowledge. From where are you speaking? Did you fail in your attempt to get sober through AA? Please tell us what makes you expert enough to judge and determine that supportive opinions of AA are mere "parroting"?
Just like ex-smokers, alcoholics make the choice to either pick up that first drink or leave it alone. It's a choice that many times needs to be made several times a day for the rest of someone's life. AA is a wonderful tool, but it isn't, and it never claims to be, a cure.
I said it was hypocritical because AA is about not doing any mind altering drugs, yet the founder of AA was an LSD advocate for God's sake. In most AA fellowships, marijuana use does not count as being "sober". However, many AAers heavily abuse much more dangerous prescription medication and still claim to be sober.
The cliquey-ness of certain AA fellowships is worse than others. Being an "alcoholic" gives many people a sense of identity and belonging that they crave. But their "singleness of purpose" seems to be nothing even remotely related to alcohol addiction many times. Many times their true "singleness of purpose" seems more race-based or culture-based. This is why many AA meetings tend to be very segregated. Many meetings in diverse suburbs are all-white, many diverse meetings in the city are all-black, some meetings are all eldery folks, some meetings everyone is under 25, some meetings are all yuppies and rich kids, some meetings are all homeless people and vagrants.
I have an old friend that is an addict in recovery. I do believe my friend has the addictive personality and doesn't have the ability to do anything in moderation. Reading Facebook status updates by my friend, in her mid 40's, is like going back in time to our 20's. Does addiction keep people from growing up, I wonder. I am being serious as I have noticed this trend amongst addictive personalities that I come across. I no longer befriend addicts as I have finally outgrown my need to "help" people as it's just a way to avoid my own problems. I do believe AA has helped my friend but she is in the minority, as the OP points out in the original post.
I have an old friend that is an addict in recovery. I do believe my friend has the addictive personality and doesn't have the ability to do anything in moderation. Reading Facebook status updates by my friend, in her mid 40's, is like going back in time to our 20's. Does addiction keep people from growing up, I wonder. I am being serious as I have noticed this trend amongst addictive personalities that I come across. I no longer befriend addicts as I have finally outgrown my need to "help" people as it's just a way to avoid my own problems. I do believe AA has helped my friend but she is in the minority, as the OP points out in the original post.
Yes Yankee,
Addiction or dependence on alcohol or substances does keep people from maturing. It's true. People take longer to mature, and have usually often dealt with tough problems (family dying, losing job, bad health, etc) by drinking. Not facing problems and learning to cope with the problem without 'escaping' from it. This is definately normal as your friend has slowed her maturity process. But, she will grow and mature if she is working the steps!
12-step programs are well-meant, and woefully inadequate.
For those who are not into a religion, it is especially poor.
The entire "they work if you work 'em" is nonsense. Of course, they work if you work 'em. It all works if you work it. The crux is that addicts don't work sobriety. There is nothing magic about the 12-steps.
I'm anti-12 steps for those who get no benefit from it, and are suspected of "not trying hard enough." OF COURSE - THEY ARE ADDICTED.
If someone benefits, great. If not, MOVE ON to something that WORKS for the individual. Something that resonates with them.
Nothing worked for my husband and he drank himself to death 9/3/14 and was sadly found by his AA sponser when he missed a meeting. He had been doing AA off and on for at least ten years. Had been through various in patient and out patent rehabs multiple times, but, always returned or drank through the rehabs depending on how rigid they were. I don't know what the OP suggest though? After 17 years I had almost given up and run out of solutions with this....what else could I have done, but, what we did.
I am not an alcoholic (don't drink at all, never have), but I have family members who are alcoholics and addicts. AA worked great for my uncle, and probably saved his life. He's been dry for 40-50 years (in his eighties), but has done nothing for two of my nephews (1 alcoholic, 1 meth addict).
I was doing research on allergies for my kids, and came across some studies about treating alcoholism with vitamins, amino acids, and other nutrients based on the subject's chemical imbalance. The typical claim from these studies was AA had a success rate of ~30%, while treating for chemical imbalances with vitamin/amino acid/mineral therapy, combined with counseling (not 12 step), had a success rate of ~70%.
Obviously, I did not do the studies, and can't substantiate their veracity, but it does stand to reason that correcting chemical imbalances would work as a treatment option - oh, and I do understand that heavy drinking over a period of time would clearly have an impact on the bodies processes and chemical balances, so I am not thinking about the "how did it happen" aspect, but the "how to correct the issue" aspect.
I think what works for the individual is the right treatment option, but intuitively it makes sense to me that treating chemical imbalances in addition to counseling would have a higher success rate and lower recidivism rate than either one alone (counseling or chemistry) - and while this is not completely accurate, I would categorize AA as something close to a therapy group, i.e. counseling and support, even though it is run by volunteers and falls outside the purview of professional counseling/therapy.
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