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That's a fantastic article. The whole campaign by feminists to punish male college students in this manner is a disgusting perversion of justice. It's one thing for a rabid or misguided school administration to enact this at their school, but the concerted effort by the Obama Administration to expand these draconian measures across the country is yet another example of the so-called constitutional scholar's utter disdain for the Constitution and justice in general.
I don't think the new policies are a "disgusting perversion of justice" as much as they are an over-correction, as stated in the article. There was a time in the not-too-distant past when a woman who complained about sexual assault could expect to have her name dragged through the mud and be accused of "asking for it" and otherwise being complicit in her own rape. These new policies are an attempt to make sure that young women know that if they report sexual assault that they will be listened to and an attempt will be made to punish the perpetrator. However, if the cases described in the articles are at all common, the policies have clearly run amuck.
Much like allegations of sexual abuse in the Catholic church, I don't understand why anyone, whether it's the victim or the Obama administration, thinks it's a good idea to let the church or the university handle the allegations. When such an allegation is made, the institution has its own interests at stake and cannot be expected to act impartially to ferret out the truth. That's what police investigators and district attorneys are for.
I've been set up before .
Long ago when I was in high school ,I was visiting a buddies house and he told me his sister wanted to see me up stairs ,so I went .
She was laid out the bed naked, pretending to be asleep, and I covered her up, and went back down stairs.
About a week later her mother came to our door at my house to talk to my parents claiming I had gotten her child pregnant, which was impossible.
I never ever did that kind of thing.
I explained the day I came to visit, and told her I was willing to have blood test to prove my innocents.
She dropped the issue completely after further discussion.
It's not the only time , but it made me more cautious in the future, and for that I am thankful.
Unfortunately it was probably sexual assault if it's true that she had been sleeping the whole hour he touched her.
I don't believe he didn't know she was not awake. "An hour or so?" Nonsense. What kind of sexual interaction is that? It doesn't take long to realize someone is asleep under regular circumstances let alone when you are interacting with them physically.
Now, would I have pressed charges for that? No, but everybody is different. Too much of a headache just because someone touched my boobs without permission.
I think women need to be more careful and realize that they need to protect themselves from dangerous situations. There are too many a-holes like "clueless" Tim out there to expect them all to request consent. Yes the world should be perfect but it isn't.
She was awake and turned away from him when this episode began. They were both drunk. They both told the same story.
I have never not once in my life asked for verbal consent before sex.
I have never asked to kiss or touch.
I don't think most people have, why would you? Do you ask to kiss hello, or do you go on body language ?
Frankly I just cant believe most men and women "ask" anything other than "do you have a condom?"/ " Are you sure it is safe" etc....
Perhaps both people involved in this story are just complete dumb asses. the guy a dumb ass to continue touching her up without encouraging responses . And she is a dumb ass for giving mixed signals, getting cuddly on a couch, drunk late at night, with a guy she is NOT sexually interested in. That is just thoughtless and dumb.
Perhaps the dumbest thing of all is forcing colleges to handle these issues and not providing fully trained specialist staff. That needs a supreme court ruling to end this BS that naturally has a huge conflict of interest.
in short both the guy and the girl sound like a pair of dumb asses who should have done some more growing up before leaving home. the whole thing reads like a tragic mistake on both their parts. Not at all fair on either of them, but alas mistakes are made and should be dealt with in a manner that reflects intent as much as the actual actions.
If you re-read she wasn't asleep the whole hour but woke up "froze" and he continued with the touching while she was awake but she didn't respond "no" because she "froze".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25
She was awake and turned away from him when this episode began. They were both drunk. They both told the same story.
I understand that. He was messaging her back and then she turn around and he touched a bunch of other places while she was asleep. The way the story was told it doesn't sound like she felt asleep for 10 seconds. Reread it.
By 1:30 a.m., they were back at her place, sprawled on the couch and watching DVDs. He started rubbing her back. Thus began the "absolute biggest mistake" of Tim's life.
According to Tim, his hands moved down to the seat of her jeans. Sensing no objection after some tentative rubbing, he then reached inside them. At one point, she shifted, perhaps toward him. He rubbed her breasts next, over the shirt, then under the shirt, then under the bra, receiving no objection at each stage. She faced the TV, so, he says, he couldn't see her eyes for most of this. When he could, they were closed, but this didn't worry him; he closed his for a while too. This all went on for an hour or so.
It doesn't matter. Normal, decent men with integrity check for a woman's reaction when they are having a sexual encounter for the first time with her. "Clueless" Tim touched way too many places without realizing "she was not conscious" by his own admission. My guess is that Tim knew well what he was doing, and he thought he would get this far only if the girl was passed out. Some men are that pathetic, just like 10-15% pay for prostitutes, even when it's well known that many are exploited or sell their body to buy drugs.
The reality is that there are many a.holes out there. Probably 2 out of 10 men would rape a woman if they knew they won't get caught. Women need to be aware of that and not put themselves in dangerous situations like these girl by drinking, sending mixed signals and inviting men to her home because one day they might run out of luck. Well I think she got lucky, she could have been more drunk or next time he could have drugged her.
Last edited by Sugah Ray; 07-23-2015 at 03:02 PM..
I think the best analysis of the dangers found in the synthesis of excessive drinking and the sexual hook-up culture so prevalent on today's college campuses, comes from Emily Yoffe (perhaps better known as "Dear Prudence"). Yoffe is a well-credentialled (rational) feminist, having graduated from Wellesley and written for The New Republic among other traditionally liberal publications.
Late last year she wrote an article in Slate entitled "The College Rape Overcorrection". It is well-researched, intelligent, balanced, and devoid of any obvious political bias. In short, it is one of the best examples of contemporary journalism I've seen in a long time.
It is true that in the past many women reporting rapes suffered injustice at the hands of officials trying to sweep it under the rug, but overcorrecting by removing the rights of the accused is simply creating more injustice. Sexual assault is a crime, our criminal justice system affords rights to both accuser, and accused, if colleges are allowed to "prosecute," these crimes, they need to maintain these rights for both parties.
"Affirmative consent" is an absurd idea, but I would counsel any young man to be absolutely certain of consent to protect himself as well as his dates, a simple "are you comfortable," or "is this okay?" would suffice.
I suggest reading the article in its entirety before answering.
Was this a sexual assault or a misunderstanding? Do you believe that not all situations have a good and bad guy?
Other thoughts?
"If you find this petrified reaction baffling, we're guessing you don't spend much time with potential partners vastly stronger than you. And if that's because you're a male, take a moment and go ask the nearest female if she understands."
I understand a woman who is being raped with force freezing in terror, it's a common response, but in this case I find her reaction baffling, and I am a woman. This was a man she knew, and obviously felt comfortable with. This makes me think no one ever talked with her about sex, and how to speak up for herself, and that was a parental/education failure.
I don't think the new policies are a "disgusting perversion of justice" as much as they are an over-correction, as stated in the article.
This may just be a difference in semantics, but I disagree that it's simply an "overcorrection" to abrogate the due-process rights of the accused. That is not OK any way you slice it. You can't make up for past wrongs by wronging more people in a different way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow
Much like allegations of sexual abuse in the Catholic church, I don't understand why anyone, whether it's the victim or the Obama administration, thinks it's a good idea to let the church or the university handle the allegations. When such an allegation is made, the institution has its own interests at stake and cannot be expected to act impartially to ferret out the truth. That's what police investigators and district attorneys are for.
This I agree with 100%. Sexual assault / rape is a crime. If someone files a complaint that a crime is committed, why is the legal system not utilized to adjudicate the claim? Then if the guy is found guilty, the school can expel him with a clean conscience and no tort liability.
I suggest reading the article in its entirety before answering.
Was this a sexual assault or a misunderstanding? Do you believe that not all situations have a good and bad guy?
Other thoughts?
Just to get it clear: He didn't rape her. He just went to 2nd base?
My thoughts are:
He knew she was asleep. When people are fondling, they KISS. They aren't kissing when he's fondling her because he knew she was asleep. So he's guilty of fondling her without her consent. It's that simple.
I'm not sure I would've reported it. Depends on how much he did. Or could tell that he did. But it probably is best to report it, since if she doesn't, he'd do it again. So she was right, and brave, to report it. Good for her.
As for her freezing, I wouldn't freeze. I'm a woman and have been in similar situations. I didn't freeze, that's for sure! No two ways about it...they knew for sure I was not okay with it. So I don't get the freezing part, unless she's just a more passive person that I was at her age.
Guys know when it's okay and when it's not. When it's okay, both of them are getting it on, and she's very much involved. If she's not moving, it's not okay! Duh.
It's a shame women can't watch movies in a house at night with a male friend without the risk of sexual assault. But maybe that's the case, and we women forget these things, getting carried away with liking our male friends.
"that's an even bigger challenge in a world where the unspoken rule has been "If she doesn't physically stop you, she secretly wants it."
".. sex is not a crime. You have to somehow prove the victim said no, and that can be next to impossible."
As a never-been-raped female, I've been wondering... and I am going to admit this...if I am crazy for genuinely wondering why a woman wouldn't attempt to stop a rape that a man was committing on her? I mean FFS is there something I am missing here? Is it too much to ask that victims try a bit harder in order to garner evidence (isn't blood or skin under fingernails or defensive wounds generally enough to put him away) to help put these rapists away? I mean considering they are out there waiting to prey on others (like myself)?
Is there something I am missing here? I'm having trouble understanding the new definition of rape. I really am.
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