Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am hoping that after a significant amount of time that MJ is legal in one of the current jurisdictions, that a study will answer the question of it being a gateway drug. My guess is that MJ is/was primarily a gateway drug, because you had to get it from someone who dealt with other illegal drugs as well. Otherwise, alcohol would have had to be considered a gateway drug, too. But, since you had legal outlets to buy alcohol, you were not being pressured to buy something "stronger", and it just didn't happen.
I think the more important question is...potential medicinal qualities aside, why do so many people feel they have alter their minds? What's broken inside them? Why can't they have a good time without being high/sloshed/buzzed?
With more and more boomers retiring and not having to go to work anymore, I think there will be a lot who like the idea of zoning out like they used to do in the 60s. That is where the market will be.
After reading several medically oriented articles on this topic, it seems that the main problem would be that if you allow unregulated use by adults you provide more opportunity for youth to get hold of these. When youth get hold of these the effects on their bodies and mental development produce permanent damage.
What's the difference with your comment in relation to alcohol or cigarettes? It starts with responsible parenting, and continues with education. MJ is available to youth right now, and making it legal may actually make it more difficult, forcing one to prove age etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
Those numbers don't paint the whole story.
For example, do the NIH numbers include all the cancers associated with alcohol consumption?
You say, 'He died of bladder cancer.' Ok. He will be filed in the bladder cancer death group. But we now know that bladder cancer can be caused/linked to alcohol consumption.
The detriment to society also cannot only be counted in how many people die. What about lost productivity? How much are the ER bills of all the drunks or potheads that come in with adverse effects? (And btw, before you try to sing your song about how nothing bad happens with marijuana just bc nothing's happened to you and your reefer buddies, let me tell you that 13 years and 70,000+ patients under my belt tell me a very different story.)
How about lost work productivity from stupid smoke breaks?
It's not just a numbers game as played out by the op.
I think the more important question is...potential medicinal qualities aside, why do so many people feel they have alter their minds? What's broken inside them? Why can't they have a good time without being high/sloshed/buzzed?
Address this question instead.
First of all, medicinal qualities and the fact MJ is a natural herb is not just a numbers game, it's reality, and a proven one scientifically.
And since you seem to have more expertise on the subject (under your belt) than any reference to real scientific studies I can find, please report the equality in the negative aspects of MJ as compared to alcohol and cigarettes. Unless what I've seen is one big lie, death rates from MJ don't even approach a fraction of 1% of those from alcohol or cigarettes. And most studies I've seen is alcohol will destroy ones ability to work and has caused people to lose their jobs, fall into depression, and take their own lives. Cigarettes eat away at people slowly and cause horrific deaths.
On the contrary, other than your Beavis and Butthead type reference, many people become quite motivated under the influence of MJ and create beautiful works of art and music, and become very efficient at their jobs. Haven't seen too many drunks doing that.
All three are bad for people. I can not understand why having access to two, makes some want to add to the list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
I think the more important question is...potential medicinal qualities aside, why do so many people feel they have alter their minds? What's broken inside them? Why can't they have a good time without being high/sloshed/buzzed?
Per CDC - 480,000 deaths annually from cigarettes, leading cause for preventable death
Per NIH - 88,000 alcohol related deaths in 2013
Per research, the worst I could find was that marijuana "could cause" up to 30,000 deaths per year, citing same effects as cigarettes.
Billions of government dollars are spent fighting the war on marijuana, and revenue lost not legalizing also in the billions.
With the tax dollars received from cigarette sales, very little is used towards programs to prevent tobacco use.
The government spends upwards of a million purchasing alcohol. The government does spend billions on substance abuse programs annually which includes alcohol and the "harder" drugs.
I'm egging on the marijuana detractors to spin their story to make marijuana as bad as alcohol or cigarettes for any reason. In my mind, there is no debate. Marijuana is the only one of the three that has medicinal qualities, and the only one grown naturally (herb). And now that states are starting to legalize marijuana, for the sake of this debate legality need not be discussed.
Marijuana is the only one of the 3 with medicinal qualities?
Ding-ding! The tobacco plant is an herb just like marijuana, with different medicinal qualities!
Manufactured cigarettes are unhealthy to smoke, no question about it!
But, you can consume tobacco in a more healthy way! Like via cigars, pipes, and? You can brew it like a tea, and drink it!
Great appetite suppressant and a natural tranquilizer!
As a nurse, I've much damage done to people from alcohol and cigarettes. Lung cancers, COPD (chronic bronchitis & emphysema), cirrhosis of the liver, family breakdowns (from alcoholism), etc.
I'll bet you have!
And you've probably seen the results of other addictions many times over, like some younger people with diabetes, and the growing epidemic of obesity, not to speak of the results of being addicted to owning/driving a car!
I'm sure you've worked in a nursing facility where you needed an extra wide bed to accommodate someone 300-400-500 pounds, and the extra-wide wheelchair!
I work in a nursing facility, and I've seen the obese come in as young as 22, too obese to even lie down flat in bed, with a big sack of potato chips by their sides! Many times I've been tempted to throw them a pack of cigarettes, take their mind off food!
In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "definitive" debate on this subject. The problem is you have folks like stan4 who works in the rehabilitation field, and with "77,000 patients under his belt" there is no way to convince him that there is any type of cannabis use that he doesn't already know about. So he is a self-proclaimed expert on it, even though he has probably never even tried it, and there is no changing his opinions about it even slightly. To him, and most other prohibitionists, "high/sloshed/buzzed" is the one and only result of ingesting cannabis, and will not listen when someone tries to enlighten them about how narrow and simplistic of a view that is.
On the other hand, you have people like me who have also self-proclaimed their expertise on the subject, based on 40+ years of direct experience, a lot of research, and the long-term experiences of many friends and acquaintances. So anytime someone proclaims some "fact" about mj or its use that is contrary to my experiences, then of course it isn't going to change my opinion either.
So here we are, completely bogged down in a quagmire of misinformation, with both sides believing they are right. It is a painful spot to be in, and I blame the propaganda war that the US government has been waging for over 75 years, along with the gullibility of the American people, as the primary causes.
I am afraid there will be no "definitive" closure of this debate until all the victims of the extremely successful government brainwashing campaign are dead and buried. The good news is that the cannabis law reform train has left the station, and it has gained enough momentum that it will plow through the quagmire. We will finally be able to enjoy SANE laws.
I am hoping that after a significant amount of time that MJ is legal in one of the current jurisdictions, that a study will answer the question of it being a gateway drug. My guess is that MJ is/was primarily a gateway drug, because you had to get it from someone who dealt with other illegal drugs as well. Otherwise, alcohol would have had to be considered a gateway drug, too. But, since you had legal outlets to buy alcohol, you were not being pressured to buy something "stronger", and it just didn't happen.
Time will tell.
When you're a kid, there are no legal avenues to buy booze..when we were 14 and 15 we would ask a friend's older brother, or we'd stand outside the liquor store and wait till some guy came in and ask him to get it for us (in the 70's, more people said yes to this than not).
I have never, ever, in the 40 years off and on that I've smoked mj, had someone I bought it from try to get me to try something stronger. You watch too many movies.
The only people that would pressure anyone to try a stronger drug were the boys in junior high and high school, thinking it might make it easier to get a girl to say "yes" to sex.
Cigarettes were the first thing I tried, beer next, pot was 3rd, so it was not the gateway to anything.
I am hoping that after a significant amount of time that MJ is legal in one of the current jurisdictions, that a study will answer the question of it being a gateway drug. My guess is that MJ is/was primarily a gateway drug, because you had to get it from someone who dealt with other illegal drugs as well. Otherwise, alcohol would have had to be considered a gateway drug, too. But, since you had legal outlets to buy alcohol, you were not being pressured to buy something "stronger", and it just didn't happen.
Time will tell.
Marijuana is no more a gateway drug than milk is. 100 million Americans have tried cannabis. 4 million have tried heroin. Gateway MYTH debunked.
Vaping (e-cigs) is getting huge....I'm totally for e-cigs and the FDA should just butt out.
E-cigarettes are entirely unregulated by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Because of this, there are no safety checks or requirements for what can go into an e-cigarette.
Without FDA regulation and review, we simply don't know what is in e-cigarettes. However, in initial lab tests conducted in 2009, the FDA found detectable levels of toxic cancer-causing chemicals—including an ingredient used in antifreeze—in two leading brands of e-cigarettes and 18 various cartridges.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
