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Old 01-27-2016, 10:10 AM
 
1,955 posts, read 1,758,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
I believe everyone who lives within society deserves power within that society.

Why? Like for real, philosophically, why do ALL people in a society deserve power within that society?


I've always believed that you don't "deserve" anything unless you have personally earned it somehow.
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Old 01-27-2016, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,840 posts, read 26,253,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
Oh no, they definitely don't receive federal funds. They tell us so ALL the time as they ask for donations. ("We don't get any federal funds so we need YOUR help! Donate today! We're counting on you!") And they show us parents a breakdown of income, income sources, and what they spent it on, during an annual meeting. They are very proud of their independence, and the fact that they don't have to follow common core or do all that testing, and still have the highest scores in the area, blah blah blah. There are definitely private schools around here that receive federal funding (like the Catholic schools), but ours isn't one of them.
Under regulations of the U.S. Department of Education, Catholic schools may receive services provided by federally funded education programs. Schools in the Archdiocese generally participate in one or more programs authorized by the current version of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (ESEA). These programs provide eligible students and faculty with the following: supplemental education for students in reading and mathematics; professional development for teachers, counselors, administrators, and other professional and auxiliary staff; services for English language learners.

And at least in some states there are school vouchers:
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Old 01-27-2016, 10:16 AM
 
1,955 posts, read 1,758,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Under regulations of the U.S. Department of Education, Catholic schools may receive services provided by federally funded education programs. Schools in the Archdiocese generally participate in one or more programs authorized by the current version of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (ESEA). These programs provide eligible students and faculty with the following: supplemental education for students in reading and mathematics; professional development for teachers, counselors, administrators, and other professional and auxiliary staff; services for English language learners.

And at least in some states there are school vouchers:

Yes, but our school isn't Catholic, it doesn't participate in any of those programs, and vouchers are not legal in our state. What does this have to do with anything?
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:31 PM
 
4,873 posts, read 3,600,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
Why? Like for real, philosophically, why do ALL people in a society deserve power within that society?


I've always believed that you don't "deserve" anything unless you have personally earned it somehow.
I could probably come up with a few reasons if I thought about it, but I think the most obvious problem is that earning power typically requires power. "It takes money to make money" and all that.

More fundamentally, we could talk about the problems of a society where, by design, a significant portion of the population is powerless. And, a very tiny portion have the vast majority of power.
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Washington state
7,028 posts, read 4,890,151 times
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And let's remember, the bailout bill for the businesses that brought about the crash of 2008 was 700 billion dollars. This is above and beyond all the money they lost in retirement funds, the amount of money people lost when their jobs went under, the number of houses that were foreclosed on, and the amount of welfare that was needed for those people who lost jobs and homes, not to mention the billions of dollars that were paid to these executives of the 2008 crash after they were reinstated in their old jobs or other jobs, none of them having gone to prison for what they did.

The yearly welfare cost is 152.8 billion dollars.

And we're worried about food stamp recipients buying soda with their food stamps?
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Old 01-28-2016, 05:13 PM
 
3 posts, read 2,499 times
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Yikes. Initially this sounds so amazing, plus amusing. It's just an idea the OP is throwing out there. It's not a real proposal in DC. The fact that we're all reading and commenting about it, shows that there is much angst amongst us taxpayers, regarding the current Snap/EBT program. Depending on one's own experience, everyone has an opinion. I witness awful behaviour everyday from those on govermental programs, as it pertains to my career. I can relate this theory to many areas of life, but in general, when people are handed Free anything for a long period of time, the entitlement in that recipient, grows. Then we are stuck with an individual who feels they somehow earned it & now deserve it; then demand more & given all the respects of someone who actually earned it - Oh but let's not forget that this same recipient is also a victim & a protected class of victim, that automatically places any opposers of this free ride process, to be ridiculed as (insert horrible label here). -eventhough they are the taxpayers, that go home everynight & is legally obligated to forcefully share part of his or her earnings to the recipients of free living.
...because of all of that, the Welfare Store sounds to good to be possible. Like I said, the hard working, independent, self reliant schmucks must never have nor express any opinion that makes the takers feel like they are given something for free. Remember- they deserve it & since they are victims, we cannot blame the victim. Also sending them to the Welfare Store may embarress them or make them feel 'less than' his or her taxpaying counterparts. In this lovely country, we must act like we are equal. Everyday Also, welfare was never and is not intended as a means of income. It is temporary assistance during a short time of need. Meaning- if youre elderly, what was your retirement plan? If youre hurt or sick, use this while you get better, assuming your emergency savings fund has been expired, then figure out your back up plan. Youre a mother with small children. Ok, lets use this Medicaid to get on Birth Control asap. Where's your husband? Oh not married? Let's call your exboyfriend to see if he'll help while you find a job and set up daycare. These are all the hardships I watched my parents go through. Yeah we were low income. LOW income. Not NO Income. We figure it out & do what we have to do. Never asked for a handout. Went without extras, worked, saved & I went to bed each night knowing I was loved, safe and my mom and dad were gonna wake up and do it all again tomorrow. We didnt have much, but we all earned every darn penny we ever had. A penny earned feels better than a EBT swipe, anyday in my opinion.
So yeah I doubt the Welfare Store would work out, but congrats for thinkin outside the box and hoping for the much needed change in this country.
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Old 01-28-2016, 08:37 PM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,448,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
Why? Like for real, philosophically, why do ALL people in a society deserve power within that society?


I've always believed that you don't "deserve" anything unless you have personally earned it somehow.

Let's say you buy a house and move into a community. Do you "deserve" the power to vote a steep extra tax on my rented home? Do I "deserve" the right to vote against such a tax?
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Old 01-28-2016, 08:55 PM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,448,123 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
Nobody goes to jail explicitly for being poor. But they go to jail because they can't afford bail. They go to jail because they can't afford a decent lawyer. When they aren't going to jail (or in addition to), they're paying enormous late fees on tickets they couldn't afford to pay off (tickets assessed for crimes like not being able to afford car repairs, or public urination when they can't afford private toilets).

The justice system is essentially a conspiracy to take money from the poor and throw them in jail when it can't. True justice is a luxury service.

Some years ago in another state I abruptly landed in hospital for several months. While I was in hospital, my car tags expired and my car - which was sitting at the end of the driveway, furthest from the street - received a number of tickets for abandoned vehicle. (the car was operable but qualified for the ticket because the tags were expired).

since i didn't even know about the tickets until I got out of the hospital, they had all defaulted with skyrocketed fines. as i had no income and no way to pay, my license was suspended and i think the unpaid fines triggered an arrest warrant. as relatives in a different state took me in when i got out of the hospital, i left the state without detection or arrest.

those old tickets have expired - statute of limitations - but i assume i would still have to pay the reinstatement fee to lift the suspension.

this was in a college town where code enforcement patrols are done 24/7 - especially in student rental neighborhoods like where i lived. in a more affluent neighborhood, nobody would have noticed my car or bothered to check the tags.
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Old 01-29-2016, 06:54 AM
 
4,873 posts, read 3,600,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
And let's remember, the bailout bill for the businesses that brought about the crash of 2008 was 700 billion dollars. This is above and beyond all the money they lost in retirement funds, the amount of money people lost when their jobs went under, the number of houses that were foreclosed on, and the amount of welfare that was needed for those people who lost jobs and homes, not to mention the billions of dollars that were paid to these executives of the 2008 crash after they were reinstated in their old jobs or other jobs, none of them having gone to prison for what they did.

The yearly welfare cost is 152.8 billion dollars.

And we're worried about food stamp recipients buying soda with their food stamps?
We should also remember that Congress reduced TARP from $700bil to $475bil via Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, and that actual disbursements ultimately amounted to $426.4bil, versus revenue (from selling back holdings of troubled banks) of $441.7bil. So the bailout didn't actually cost the government (and taxpayers) $700bil, it cost negative $15.3bil.

Of course you could make a similar, if less direct, argument about welfare ultimately paying for itself.
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Old 01-30-2016, 01:45 AM
 
Location: Washington state
7,028 posts, read 4,890,151 times
Reputation: 21892
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
We should also remember that Congress reduced TARP from $700bil to $475bil via Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, and that actual disbursements ultimately amounted to $426.4bil, versus revenue (from selling back holdings of troubled banks) of $441.7bil. So the bailout didn't actually cost the government (and taxpayers) $700bil, it cost negative $15.3bil.

Of course you could make a similar, if less direct, argument about welfare ultimately paying for itself.
If 15.3 billion isn't enough for you, try this. I'm taking these figures from "The Big Short":

"In the US after the collapse of 2008, 5 trillion dollars of pension money, real estate value, 401Ks, savings, and bonds had disappeared. Eight million people lost their jobs and 6 million lost their homes."


Tell me the taxpayers didn't pay for that. The bank I was working for went under.

Oh, by the way? There really hasn't been any reform or reorganization of the banks. We learned nothing from the savings and loan disaster of the 80s and we learned nothing from 2008. Word is, there's another housing bubble coming up.
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