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Because I have done my research, know my math, and know that the amount of money we spend on defense is actually much smaller than the amount of money we spend on handouts. I am also very familiar with all the cuts that defense took recently, while handouts grew. I also posted a quick summary of my research with real numbers on this thread earlier, which you may have missed. You can't trick me with propaganda. I've seen the actual spending numbers and know how to use excel. Sorry.
Then you are claiming that Social Security and Medicare are "handouts" because that's only way you can reach that conclusion.
Then you are claiming that Social Security and Medicare are "handouts" because that's only way you can reach that conclusion.
They are handouts. They are necessary handouts, so they should not go away, but they are growing faster than can be sustained, and need to face some cuts or reform to get it back to manageable levels. But they are still handouts. We just had this debate last week.
The fact remains that the federal government needs to cut spending in order to prevent disaster. The DoD heeded the call and made vast cuts. The rest of the budget needs to be subjected to the same cuts. Just cutting the DoD is not enough.
They can have all the joy and penny whistles they want, on their own dime. If they can't afford it now, they can't have it now. They should work to change their situation, and get it next time, when they can afford it.
That's what I teach my kids, and it works for grown ups too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5
Joy is a luxury that is earned through hard work.
The Declaration of Independence declares that all people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The PURSUIT of happiness. Everyone has the right to PURSUE joy. Not "everyone has the right to joy". Everyone has the right to try and lawfully earn money to buy things that bring them joy, like pennywhistles and birthday cakes.
But they don't have the right to those things automatically. Only the right to earn them, fair and square.
Ah, but if you are on food stamps you aren't paying for all your own food so you shouldn't be spending anything on fun because it's not really "their own dime" if they're also accepting food stamps. So what you said is nobody on food stamps (or other form of means-tested welfare) should spend money on fun.
If joy is a luxury earned through hard work, then shouldn't people who work hard be able to afford to spend some pennies on joy? But many people work hard and still require food stamps, because they work hard at a job that pays poorly.
So I believe your premise is flawed. Luxury is not earned through hard work. Luxury is earned through luck and being born to wealthier parents. I see lots of people who work hard and make good money. I also see lots of people work hard and make bad money or no money. And I see people who work hard and lose money. And I have heard of people who have more money than I'll ever see, who need never work a day in their lives unless they feel like it. So while hard work might be marginally helpful, it is definitely not sufficient to achieve wealth or escape poverty.
And when you accept that poverty cannot be escaped just by working hard, the moral argument that we should punish the poor falls apart. The average poor person deserves to spend just as much as you or I do on luxuries. They just don't have the opportunity to do so. Don't conflate "having money to spend" with "deserving money to spend", unless you have evidence to support your hypothesis.
They are handouts. They are necessary handouts, so they should not go away, but they are growing faster than can be sustained, and need to face some cuts or reform to get it back to manageable levels. But they are still handouts. We just had this debate last week.
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We can have this argument every day if you would like, the fact is that Social Security and Medicare are NOT handouts but it's the only way you can make your case. The Weekly Standard started this big lie in 2012 and Conservatives loved it and ran with it, but there's a little problem with their report, they included 83 programs many of which most people have never even heard of and a number of which aren't even needs based such as: rural housing loans, adoption assistance, child support enforcement, breast/cervical cancer detection.. They did this in an attempt to revive Reagan's welfare queen trope.
And as we keep pointing out, over and over, the majority of people on welfare work and pay taxes. That means they are contributing to the food stamps they are using. If I was working and paying taxes to the food stamps I was using, I'd figure I'd earned the right to decide how they should be used.
Look at it this way: if I was working full time and paying taxes, I wouldn't be walking up to someone I knew who only had a part-time job and telling him that since he hadn't paid as much in taxes to maintain those roads as I did, he'd have to stay home and off the roads for the next two weeks. But that's exactly what people want to do to those who are using food stamps and getting welfare.
Sorry, but I for one agree 100 percent with pkbab's post above. What s/he wrote is EXACTLY how I feel.
And although I agree with your point about cigarettes, fatty foods, etc. why should what my neighbor buys bother me in the slightest, as long as they can afford to buy it out of their own money?
Also, since you bring up health care costs, the fact is that so many people having FREE medical care is part of what drives up health care and insurance premiums for those of us who pay for our health care out of our earnings. Again, I realize that is not the ONLY reason healthcare and insurance premiums are so high, but it is part of the reason.
This is not true, coming from someone who works in physical rehab. Under-insured and non-insured people not getting early health care when a disease can still be treated inexpensively costs us many, many times more than paying for insurance does.
Also more of your neighbors "take" your money in the form of public pension double-dipping, or getting a promotion 1 month before a planned retirement, or any of the other corrupt things than happen every day in every single area of society, than take it in food stamps. The poor are just the easiest targets, the easiest to point at and say "their fault!".
Can we at least agree that people who have never, or almost never, worked or paid income taxes at all, even when they have been able to do so, do deserve outrage when they rip off the system?
And do any of you truly believe that poor people should ALWAYS be coddled and excused, and that they truly do "deserve" what most people would consider to be luxuries or non-essentials?
I just think that in SOME cases -- although, again, certainly not all -- SOME poor people do NOT deserve to be pitied, except that they might have been born without a "conscience" and/or were raised by people who did not teach them honesty and a good work ethic.
And the above statement, I think, might lead to another debate as to how much "bad parenting" and/or possibly "bad genetics" (in the case of people with Antisocial Personality Disorder, often called sociopathy or psychopathy) should excuse bad behavior and/or bad choices. I do realize that not everyone has been as fortunate as I was in being raised with parents who instilled honesty and a good work ethic, although I have had a far from perfect life and I have made some very bad choices, as most of us have. However, I have never expected others to pay for my mistakes. (And, yes, I think having children when one is not able to support and raise them properly, trying illegal drugs, dropping out of high school, and not doing what it takes to earn a living wage are mistakes.)
And, AGAIN (for what seems like the twentieth time!), I am NOT talking about people who would work if they could -- or about those people who work more than one job and are still at the poverty level, I do know that there are many people like that out there.
P.S. I do also realize that people's opinions are formed in large part by their personal experiences; and in my case, was my childhood, combined with my experience volunteering at a food bank, that are almost definitely the reasons for my lack of sympathy and compassion for welfare thieves. (My dad worked two jobs to support us rather than accept any kind of government assistance, My mom couldn't work outside the home because she my severely disabled brother needed 24/7 care until he died; however, she took in ironing for a little extra income, and I also contributed to the family income from the time I was 14. Again, I do realize that not everyone can work, and I do feel sorry for those people.)
Most folks do not resent the poor, or want to deny them pleasures, or want them to look poor. They have no problem with the poor having whatever pleasures or luxuries they like, as long as they pay for them themselves.
The problem people have is that they pay a lot of money to help folks have enough to eat and to be able to feed their kids, and go to the doctor and get medicine. Because we are told that without us contributing that money, those poor folks would starve, and their kids would starve. The social safety net is there, and paid for by tax payers, so that people don't starve, or go homeless, or freeze to death in the winter, or die from some ailment that could be easily treated.
But then you see someone who is receiving money from the social safety net who appears to have plenty of money to spend on cigarettes or other luxuries. And the question becomes, why am I giving you money for food, when you have money for food, you're just spending it on cigarettes or a phone instead? That's not cool, please give me my money back, and use your own money for your own food. THAT'S the feeling that people have. Not resentment for being poor. Just "if you have enough money for those things, you need to give me MY money back, and use your own for your necessities".
Perfectly stated.
Public assistance should only pay for necessities, and only for those who are unable (as opposed to unwilling) to provide said necessities for themselves. Anyone who wonders what is or is not a necessity for purposes of this discussion will find the necessities listed on the the bottom level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs:
Can we at least agree that people who have never, or almost never, worked or paid income taxes at all, even when they have been able to do so, do deserve outrage when they rip off the system?
And do any of you truly believe that poor people should ALWAYS be coddled and excused, and that they truly do "deserve" what most people would consider to be luxuries or non-essentials?
I just think that in SOME cases -- although, again, certainly not all -- SOME poor people do NOT deserve to be pitied, except that they might have been born without a "conscience" and/or were raised by people who did not teach them honesty and a good work ethic.
And the above statement, I think, might lead to another debate as to how much "bad parenting" and/or possibly "bad genetics" (in the case of people with Antisocial Personality Disorder, often called sociopathy or psychopathy) should excuse bad behavior and/or bad choices. I do realize that not everyone has been as fortunate as I was in being raised with parents who instilled honesty and a good work ethic, although I have had a far from perfect life and I have made some very bad choices, as most of us have. However, I have never expected others to pay for my mistakes. (And, yes, I think having children when one is not able to support and raise them properly, trying illegal drugs, dropping out of high school, and not doing what it takes to earn a living wage are mistakes.)
And, AGAIN (for what seems like the twentieth time!), I am NOT talking about people who would work if they could -- or about those people who work more than one job and are still at the poverty level, I do know that there are many people like that out there.
P.S. I do also realize that people's opinions are formed in large part by their personal experiences; and in my case, was my childhood, combined with my experience volunteering at a food bank, that are almost definitely the reasons for my lack of sympathy and compassion for welfare thieves. (My dad worked two jobs to support us rather than accept any kind of government assistance, My mom couldn't work outside the home because she my severely disabled brother needed 24/7 care until he died; however, she took in ironing for a little extra income, and I also contributed to the family income from the time I was 14. Again, I do realize that not everyone can work, and I do feel sorry for those people.)
Yes, I do think most of us acknowledge that there is fraud. What we don't agree with though is the notion that ALL food stamp recipients should be punished by having to travel to some sort of "Welfare store" to buy milk for their kids because of those few.
This is not true, coming from someone who works in physical rehab. Under-insured and non-insured people not getting early health care when a disease can still be treated inexpensively costs us many, many times more than paying for insurance does.
Also more of your neighbors "take" your money in the form of public pension double-dipping, or getting a promotion 1 month before a planned retirement, or any of the other corrupt things than happen every day in every single area of society, than take it in food stamps. The poor are just the easiest targets, the easiest to point at and say "their fault!".
I am not disputing at all that diseases and injuries can be treated more inexpensively.
I am sorry that I did not make this clear, but my gripe is just as much with companies who charge up to a thousand dollars (or even more) for a one-hour visit to an ER as it is with Medicare/Medicaid recipients. When he was 16, my son got a very bad sunburn on a Sunday, and he was in such pain that we took him to the ER. The cost was over $700 for about a two-minute exam, some cooling pads, and a OTC pain reliever. The point is that if everyone paid their share, and Medicaid and/or Medicare -- I always confuse the two -- recipients did not go to the ER for runny noses slight fevers, the cost for others would be lessened. (And, yes, I do know that many poor people go to the ER for bad colds because I have known people who were on Medicare/Medicaid who said they did, unless they were lying, which is not logical, I think.) Again, I had said that is PART of the problem, as I do realize that there is probably a lot of price-gouging going on from hospitals and insurance companies. (And I also know the cost for fancy equipment and expensive building must be spread out, although i would rather go to a cement building with no windows if it would save me hundreds of dollars on hospital bills.) However, as I have said several times, I am not an economist, and I could be wrong about the price-gouging -- although it is difficult for me to think that I AM wrong based on several personal experiences.
As far as your second paragraph, I don't personally know ANYONE who does that, although perhaps my husband and I are exceptionally honest and know more honest people than you do. However, even if my middle-class neighbors did do anything dishonest, that does not make it okay for others to be dishonest, too. In my opinion, the attitude of "he did something wrong, so why can't I do something wrong, too?" is a big part of why the world is in such a mess. (And I am definitely not talking just about welfare and personal finances!)
Oh, and btw, of course I am NOT a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination, but I am as honest a person as I can be, although I do make plenty of unintentional mistakes.
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