Do you still believe in the effectiveness of debates? (global warming, illegal, soldier)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Increasingly I don't think you can change people's minds with argumentation. I think people's beliefs are hard-coded by their identity and place in society. If anything I think that in the past people were more credulous and could be convinced to work against their interests. Now that is much harder to do.
On the one hand it's a shame since reasoned debate is one of the best gifts of the Enlightenment, and makes life more engaging and with generally better outcomes. On the other hand I don't expect, say, a homosexual to be convinced that same-sex marriage should be made illegal. In this case and many others like it debate is pointless and a bit insulting.
How to resolve conflicts in the absence of debate is a much bigger topic which I won't touch on.
I like debates but today we have so many people that are narrow minded, self centered and think that they know it all that it is impossible to change their minds. It is even very difficult to have them consider that there is another side to an issue.
Politics is the big debate today. I have lost so called friends because of their die hard Liberal Trump hating thinking. Entering into even a mild debate with them while I play devils advocate and point out the facts led to screaming obscenity laced rants and subsequent unfriending on facebook and face to face.
People are NUTZ. They have their opinion and won't even consider another viewpoint.
We have seen the riots on college campuses where a Conservative speaker has been violently shut down from talking.
Why not listen to the other side and stop being so narrow minded? You don't have to agree but people do still have the right to their opinion.
Debate is a good thing but today we see it being shut down by violence and that is not good for mindful growth.
Debates are nothing like they used to be. Most of what passes at "debating" these days is heavily-steeped in emotion and drama. It's mostly about using "the heart" and energy these days, rather than using strictly the mind and intellect. That could be our biggest loss since the origins of our country. Likewise, most people cannot analyze and decipher what they see, hear, and read. People really don't think for themselves, and are easily manipulated and gullible to the powers that be. There are relatively few that can stay detuned and immune from the drama, and see things as they truly are. It's the perfect atmosphere to breed corruption, hatred, and dysfunction.
First of all, I think we're misusing the word "debate". The elections are about the only time we have the semblance of a "debate".
What I think we are talking about is the public discussion of various topics.
Let me take as an example my viewpoint about abortion. I first became aware of the various points of view about abortion when I was a late teen. My opinions about abortion have formed over the last 50 years (I'm in my late 60s). What is it that anyone thinks is going to suddenly change my mind about whatever my opinion about abortion is after 50 years of developing that opinion? What suddenly discovered information is going to pop up to change what I believe?
But that doesn't mean that people's opinions about topics don't evolve. It doesn't mean that they can't better understand the other side's viewpoint, even if they don't change their own viewpoint. I'll take as an example Black Lives Matter. My viewpoint of the concept of black lives matter (note small case) has changed drastically; my viewpoint of the organization Black Lives Matter (not large case) has not changed much at all.
And there's also the assumption that in listening to the "national discussion" that one's viewpoints are going to win over people on the other side. Maybe it ought to occur to people that in some cases the more people on the other side press their issues, the more negative people may be toward their positions. Even when one "wins" a debate, the victory can be pyrrhic. I started out as moderate Republican. I respected real Republican thinkers such as George Will. As I listened to right wing conservatives more and more over the years I dropped out of the Republican party, evolved to being a Democrat who would consider voting for Republican candidates, and now evolved to making a pledge that I would NEVER vote for a Republican for any office under any circumstance. So you see, you conservatives have succeeded in changing my mind through your public discussion...in just the opposite way in which you had hoped for.
There are issues that have come up here on this forum where I have, to one degree or another, changed my mind due to the discussion. There are other issues where, even if I didn't change my mind, I had a better understanding of those on the other side.
Most debate and social discussion lack a common 'truth standard' - because many have abandoned God and His truth. "Instead, they call the truth a lie, and the lie the truth ... and each become their own 'god'". Without an established truth standard, human debate is only a circular discussion of what each person 'thinks', with no ultimate resolution.
Prophecy, Archaeology, Science, Literature and other incontrovertible, empirical proofs affirm the Bible as God's revealed truth (UCanKnowTheTruth.com). But, while every person is created with an inborn knowledge of God, each is also given the free to accept or reject God and His truth. God and His truth and judgment remain unchanged by human belief or debate -- and all are ultimately judged by God's truth.
I think the resolution of social disputes over values has devolved to a turnout and enthusiasm game. Whoever turns out the most people on their side, wins. Neither side listens to the other, except to gin up anger and increase turnout.
Which is sad for democracy, especially for the value of minority rights.
People in general lack critical thinking skills and basic concepts of how things work. So it is incredible difficult to have a serious discussion about anything specific, lets say the most recent tax change proposal, because folks really don't understand the underlying concepts.
People have issues getting around confirmation bias and all of the treasure trove of information that can be found on the internet. Honest information can be difficult to find and even if you do find it you have to be able to use that information. Most people simply can't do that and as a result are head line experts. At least the headlines they agree with.
I think most of America actually agrees on far more than people realize. We just get caught up only on the things that we don't agree on. These hot button issues get pressed by each side in an attempt to spur people to vote as politicians realize the general population simply can't handle specifics.
Remove guns and abortion from the debate.
Now ask some simple questions:
"Are you concerned about the debt which rises by 700b a year?"
"Do you feel the programs with the most money, tend to have the most waste?"
I think a large majority would agree to both of those statements. Now you can start at the largest programs and start cutting waste.
The problem is politicians have polarized the population and say things like "I'm for a strong military" now suddenly all the "feels" start and military spending is off the table. Then the other side says "I'm for the poor people on disability" and suddenly SSI/Disability is off the table. Regardless of the actual waste or not present, off the table. Throw in corporate money special interest and you have a real problem getting anything done.
When we stop acting like moths flying towards a stimulus flame and start using our brains we'll see some of our problems fixed.
Actually we'll likely crumble from within, due to our bad decisions and inaction all the while focusing on everything and anything that is not actually important.
Sadly,
news media keeps on pushing the "Dunning-Kruger effect"
That's when stupid people think that they are smarter than everybody else.
that's why debates are not effective anymore.
The goal of a debate is for people to expose their idea and have a conversation about each idea.
You can't do that with people that from the start they think "I'm right and if you disagree with me, you are an idiot"
Increasingly I don't think you can change people's minds with argumentation. I think people's beliefs are hard-coded by their identity and place in society. If anything I think that in the past people were more credulous and could be convinced to work against their interests. Now that is much harder to do.
On the one hand it's a shame since reasoned debate is one of the best gifts of the Enlightenment, and makes life more engaging and with generally better outcomes. On the other hand I don't expect, say, a homosexual to be convinced that same-sex marriage should be made illegal. In this case and many others like it debate is pointless and a bit insulting.
How to resolve conflicts in the absence of debate is a much bigger topic which I won't touch on.
I think the problem is that debates aren't purely academic. Many of us are stakeholders when it comes to certain issues. Obviously, your citation of same sex marriage issue is a good example. People who are in same-sex marriages or want to undertake them are unlikely to be convinced that same sex marriage is wrong. Business interests are unlikely to support increased government regulation of business. Millionaires are unlikely to favor increasing the graduated income tax. People trying to leave a $5 million dollar estate to their family are unlikely to favor increasing the inheritance tax. Coal miners are unlikely to believe in climate change or global warming.
Than there is the issue of psychological or emotional investment in something. One who had a child who served as a soldier and was killed in a war is unlikely to want to admit the war was a failure and walk away from it. Another example is whether young people ought to go to college or not. I went to college and invested years of my life doing so and earning degrees. I am unlikely because of just the emotional investment I made to agree with an argument that it is unnecessary for young people today to attend college.
I have come to recognize some debates are quite fruitless. Sometimes, one can gain ground by simply getting the other person to recognize there is another side to an argument and those on the other side are not the devil's spawn. Perhaps, some agreement can be reached at least on common facts. These half measures can be better than nothing.
There is also something to the notion that sometimes it takes time for people to reevaluate a position and change it. Sometimes, they need to hear the same thing more than once and have a chance to reflect on it. People can change their opinions over time. I know because I have on several issues.
Increasingly I don't think you can change people's minds with argumentation. I think people's beliefs are hard-coded by their identity and place in society. If anything I think that in the past people were more credulous and could be convinced to work against their interests. Now that is much harder to do.
On the one hand it's a shame since reasoned debate is one of the best gifts of the Enlightenment, and makes life more engaging and with generally better outcomes. On the other hand I don't expect, say, a homosexual to be convinced that same-sex marriage should be made illegal. In this case and many others like it debate is pointless and a bit insulting.
How to resolve conflicts in the absence of debate is a much bigger topic which I won't touch on.
The squeaky wheel gets the oil, the same is true of people. The loud people, who post frequently on the internet and talk loudly with others, are the minority. The vast majority of people are middle of the road and open to many different ideas. Most people are not on the extreme right or left. They may lean to one side, but most people are all over the place on political issues. For these people, debate helps a great deal.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
