Alcoholics Anonymous and Rehab doesn't work for most people (unemployed, interview, legal)
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In America and most of the Western world, there is one solution that society unanimously offers for treating alcoholism and substance abuse and that is the twelve step program of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. The problem is that there is an incredibly low success rate for people trying to quit drinking and abusing drugs in AA and NA. It has been estimated that the success rate for AA is as low as 5%.
The problem with AA is that a drinker has to hit "bottom" before he or she is willing to ask for help. But many drinkers who want to stop often end up dying, ruining their health or going to prison and never hit "bottom". The very premise of NA and AA is contradictory to the nature of true addiction in saying an alcoholic or addict must be "willing" to stop drinking or using. This makes little sense because if someone was truly "willing" to stop drinking or using, they could do it themselves without any help.
I think AA is so popular in America because it is based on very American principles of taking charge of your life and taking responsibility for your own actions. But this is the main problem with AA. If addiction is truly a disease, how is willingness and God going to fix that? Imagine being sick and going to the doctor and having him say go to meetings to treat your cancer. Imagine being chastised by the doctor saying you weren't "willing" to get better because you didn't follow this direction.
The truth is that alcohol is a billion dollar industry. There is no magic bullet cure for alcoholism because alcoholics rake in millions of dollars for king alcohol every month. Alcohol is much more dangerous than marijuana, but alcohol can be taxed and sold with ease. Also, most people can handle their liquor. Only about 1 in 13 people are alcoholic.
What is worse is that alcoholism is a complete self diagnosis. And since alcohol is so socially acceptable, it is hard to draw the line between hard drinking, partying and alcoholism.
The spiritual aspect of AA also turns many people off. We live in a very secular society. Even if you do believe in God and pray daily, you can still be a hopeless miserable person who can't stop drinking.
The social cost of alcoholism is heavy. Thousands die on the roads every year because of drunk driving. Alcohol and violence go hand in hand. Approximately 50% of all violent crime is tied to alcohol intoxication.
If some of these people wanted to treat their addiction and there was a better solution, they would do it. But instead, they were told they failed the program and weren't ready to stop drinking yet.
And most of all, AA doesn't address the underlying issues of why people drink in a direct fashion. AA 4th steps are more shame-filled soul searching than anything. A person who is unemployed may become an alcoholic. A person with no direction in life may become an alcoholic. AA is a one size fits all approach that doesn't fit most people. And this is why most people who try AA fail miserably at it. Many people who claim to sober in AA are not sober or even alcoholic. AA is simply their social club for many people. This is why male sexual predators are common in every single AA fellowship. The Midtown group in the DC area was notorious for sexual abuse of young women and underaged girls.
In addition, Bill Wilson was a hypocrite who wrote the Big Book high on LSD. What kind of respectful organization has a complete hypocrite as it's founder?!
You refer to AA as a social club. That's a good thing. A support group must exist. AA simply isn't enough on it's own.
You also point out the founders view on LSD, claiming him to be a hypocrite. I disagree. LSD therapy has been used to treat various mental disorders, for PTSD to depression to addiction, and the results have been fairly positive. The issue is that the pharmaceutical industry gets in the way. And the underlying issue with the average American is the love of tradition. AA is well known and established. So people prefer that over alternative ideas. Americans don't seem to like facts as much as they should.
You refer to AA as a social club. That's a good thing. A support group must exist. AA simply isn't enough on it's own.
You also point out the founders view on LSD, claiming him to be a hypocrite. I disagree. LSD therapy has been used to treat various mental disorders, for PTSD to depression to addiction, and the results have been fairly positive. The issue is that the pharmaceutical industry gets in the way. And the underlying issue with the average American is the love of tradition. AA is well known and established. So people prefer that over alternative ideas. Americans don't seem to like facts as much as they should.
I said it was hypocritical because AA is about not doing any mind altering drugs, yet the founder of AA was an LSD advocate for God's sake. In most AA fellowships, marijuana use does not count as being "sober". However, many AAers heavily abuse much more dangerous prescription medication and still claim to be sober.
The cliquey-ness of certain AA fellowships is worse than others. Being an "alcoholic" gives many people a sense of identity and belonging that they crave. But their "singleness of purpose" seems to be nothing even remotely related to alcohol addiction many times. Many times their true "singleness of purpose" seems more race-based or culture-based. This is why many AA meetings tend to be very segregated. Many meetings in diverse suburbs are all-white, many diverse meetings in the city are all-black, some meetings are all eldery folks, some meetings everyone is under 25, some meetings are all yuppies and rich kids, some meetings are all homeless people and vagrants.
These programs work for those who work them. Drinking coffee and socializing at AA and NA meetings isn't an instant cure. It takes a lot of work to maintain sobriety, work that many aren't interested in doing. That doesn't mean the programs don't work.
One of the critical things that I believe this anti-AA screed misses, from what I have been told by people in it, is that it works as well as it does for many people because of the GROUP support. That is much more than a "social club" from what I've been told, as members take steps to help each other stay sober--something many found impossible to do on their own. That some alcoholics will find this support in groups they can identify with, whether all-white, all-black, young, gay, straight, diverse, or whatever, seems to be beside the point as long as the group can help an individual get back on his/her feet.
I guess some non-alcoholic people could treat an AA meeting strictly as a social club, go trawling for chicks there, or some such. But my gut tells me there's better ways to get a date. As to the the bad eggs there, well, there are bad men who'll mistreat women almost everywhere, unfortunately. I don't think it's fair to blame that on AA.
The other thing that he, my friend, tells me about AA is that it isn't so much about "not drinking" -- a prerequisite for a good life to be sure -- but about changing one's way of life outside of alcohol-related problems. The 12 steps are supposed to be a guide to living well, more so than just a way to stop drinking, which is what makes the program attractive to many people. (And also, I'd guess, what turns off some others.) That does include physical, emotional, and yes, spiritual health. All three are desirable and necessary for a good life--though from what I understand, spirituality involves an individual's "higher power" and isn't necessarily God or traditional religion.
Yes, there is no "magic bullet" for addiction. Everybody cannot be saved. And some alcoholics will find ways to get it under control without AA. But if AA helps people, which I've seen from two close friends I know, why knock it?
These programs work for those who work them. Drinking coffee and socializing at AA and NA meetings isn't an instant cure. It takes a lot of work to maintain sobriety, work that many aren't interested in doing. That doesn't mean the programs don't work.
You are just parroting AA jargon which has no basis in the reality that only 5% of AAer's remain sober through the program over many years. Literally, over 90% of people who do AA do not remain sober over the long haul. Chastising addicts for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and being "willing" to be sober everyday is as bad as blaming people who are gravely ill for their own condition. AA is just as bad as any Americanism of blaming people for their own problems and asking themselves to take responsibility for their own actions. But the true nature of addiction negates "willingness", stupid.
Someone who wants to quit drinking shouldn't have to "hit bottom" and nearly die many times or risk ending up in jail for the rest of their life just to get sober. But this is the problem with AA.
And many people do stay sober off of the fellowship. I think those people aren't even true alcoholics at all. But many true addicts/alcoholics are violently antisocial misanthropes who no one wants to hang around. And many AAers are downright annoying, patronizing as well as being highly judgemental and hypocritical.
If your only solution to a problem is praying to God it get's better, it isn't the greatest solution in the world. Imagine having a car that needs tons of maintenance and only praying it gets fixed by God on it's own. How stupid would that be? Religion and spirituality are often an opiates of the poor because the downtrodden are made to believe that they will inherit the earth one day. This is why there is a storefront church for every liquor store in every American inner city area to keep poor people desperate, beaten down and living on their knees.
AA should be about building people's self-esteem, not telling them they are hopeless and powerless. But AAer's, who are most likely not even true alcoholics themselves, rather tell alcoholics that they are failures for not being one of the 5% AA success stories.
Ultimately, cheerleading for the few AA success stories is harmful for society. If there was a safe pill to curb alcoholic and opiate cravings, America would be a much safer, peaceful place with much less tragedy. Big pharma would actually make a righteous multibillion dollar industry instead of getting people hooked on prescription opiates like they have been doing to usher in a new suburban heroin epidemic thanks to an all-time high in international opiate production as a result of the American invasion of Afghanistan and falling drug production prices in Latin America. But king alcohol and queen heroin would lose billions of dollars annually if there ever was a safe pill to curb alcohol and opiate cravings. This is why that pill doesn't exist. Just like how a water fueled car has been designed and could be marketed, yet would never be mass produced and marketed to the masses because petroleum is also a huge trillion dollar industry.
Last edited by LunaticVillage; 03-25-2015 at 02:23 AM..
There certainly is no "magic bullet" to cure addiction. What works for some might not work for others. FOR ME, AA has helped me tremendously in formulating a better and more productive design for living that works FOR ME. I've been sober for more than 10 years (including nights, weekends and holidays) and someone who attends AA meetings and works that program of recovery.
AA holds no monopoly on getting/staying sober. There are hospitals, psychiatrists, religion, treatment facilities, group therapy, etc....I believe that someone who is battling addiction should have open access to ALL avenues of treatment, and pick the one that best works for them.
I see these kinds of topics now and again, debunking methods of recovery. Pro tip: there isn't ONE single entity on this planet (man made) that is 100% perfect. My suggestion is to keep an open mind, and take advantage of all that is offered. Being in the grips of addiction is no joke, and i'm glad there are numerous ways of getting and staying clean and sober, and hope that all who seek help get the support they need.
It has been estimated that the success rate for AA is as low as 5%.
"As low as 5%"? According to whom? What are they selling? What are the higher estimates?
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The problem with AA is that a drinker has to hit "bottom" before he or she is willing to ask for help.
Each person decides what their own bottom is. For some it's waking up with a hangover every Saturday and Sunday. For others it's losing a job, and/or a spouse, and/or jail, etc.
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But many drinkers who want to stop often end up dying, ruining their health or going to prison and never hit "bottom". The very premise of NA and AA is contradictory to the nature of true addiction in saying an alcoholic or addict must be "willing" to stop drinking or using. This makes little sense because if someone was truly "willing" to stop drinking or using, they could do it themselves without any help.
Well, AA is a voluntary program. I don't know of a program that goes out and rounds up drunks. Even the homeless can legally refuse shelter. So drunks can legally refuse help.
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I think AA is so popular in America because it is based on very American principles of taking charge of your life and taking responsibility for your own actions. But this is the main problem with AA. If addiction is truly a disease, how is willingness and God going to fix that? Imagine being sick and going to the doctor and having him say go to meetings to treat your cancer. Imagine being chastised by the doctor saying you weren't "willing" to get better because you didn't follow this direction.
Not sure what you're getting at. If going to meetings had a 5% rate of curing cancer and it was completely under my control, I'd do it. Bad analogy.
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The truth is that alcohol is a billion dollar industry. There is no magic bullet cure for alcoholism because alcoholics rake in millions of dollars for king alcohol every month. Alcohol is much more dangerous than marijuana, but alcohol can be taxed and sold with ease. Also, most people can handle their liquor. Only about 1 in 13 people are alcoholic.
Are you really saying that there's no cure for alcoholism because alcoholics spend money on alcohol? That doesn't make any sense.
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What is worse is that alcoholism is a complete self diagnosis. And since alcohol is so socially acceptable, it is hard to draw the line between hard drinking, partying and alcoholism.
Sometimes the diagnosis is made after a run-in with the law.
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The spiritual aspect of AA also turns many people off. We live in a very secular society. Even if you do believe in God and pray daily, you can still be a hopeless miserable person who can't stop drinking.
There are agnostic/atheist AA meetings. Also, you can be a hopeless miserable person even after you quit drinking, so take off the rose-colored glasses.
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The social cost of alcoholism is heavy. Thousands die on the roads every year because of drunk driving. Alcohol and violence go hand in hand. Approximately 50% of all violent crime is tied to alcohol intoxication.
If some of these people wanted to treat their addiction and there was a better solution, they would do it. But instead, they were told they failed the program and weren't ready to stop drinking yet.
What? Told by whom? Nobody is in charge of AA. It's just a bunch of drunks in church basements. If somebody hurts your feelings at a meeting, get over it or go find a different meeting.
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And most of all, AA doesn't address the underlying issues of why people drink in a direct fashion.
So what? You need a reason to stop, first of all. Later you can figure out why you drank, if you care. Everyone has a different reason, or 100 different reasons, and you hear them all at AA meetings.
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AA 4th steps are more shame-filled soul searching than anything. A person who is unemployed may become an alcoholic. A person with no direction in life may become an alcoholic. AA is a one size fits all approach that doesn't fit most people.
No it isn't. Each different group has its own personality, and each drunk has his own personality.
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And this is why most people who try AA fail miserably at it. Many people who claim to sober in AA are not sober or even alcoholic. AA is simply their social club for many people. This is why male sexual predators are common in every single AA fellowship. The Midtown group in the DC area was notorious for sexual abuse of young women and underaged girls.
There are plenty of "male sexual predators" at bars and nightclubs. When they want to get sober they go to AA meetings and they are still male sexual predators. Don't be so naïve.
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In addition, Bill Wilson was a hypocrite who wrote the Big Book high on LSD. What kind of respectful organization has a complete hypocrite as it's founder?!
LOL name one "respectable organization" that wasn't founded by a hypocrite!
Last edited by jtab4994; 03-25-2015 at 10:09 PM..
Reason: spelling
AA worked for me, yes I had hit bottum and wanted desperatly to stay sober. I'm sober 31 years now and would have been dead years ago if it wasen't for AA. I have a great productive life thanks to AA.
There certainly is no "magic bullet" to cure addiction. What works for some might not work for others. FOR ME, AA has helped me tremendously in formulating a better and more productive design for living that works FOR ME. I've been sober for more than 10 years (including nights, weekends and holidays) and someone who attends AA meetings and works that program of recovery.
AA holds no monopoly on getting/staying sober. There are hospitals, psychiatrists, religion, treatment facilities, group therapy, etc....I believe that someone who is battling addiction should have open access to ALL avenues of treatment, and pick the one that best works for them.
I see these kinds of topics now and again, debunking methods of recovery. Pro tip: there isn't ONE single entity on this planet (man made) that is 100% perfect. My suggestion is to keep an open mind, and take advantage of all that is offered. Being in the grips of addiction is no joke, and i'm glad there are numerous ways of getting and staying clean and sober, and hope that all who seek help get the support they need.
This is where AA loses sight though. AA touts itself as the only avenue out of jails, institutions and deaths for alcoholics. For many people, being told that they are powerless everyday leads them to drink more and more. Also, AA causes many people to drink more because after every slip up of a drink, an honest alcoholic is supposed to pick up a one day chip and is called a "new guy" by everyone in the rooms even if he had 20 years sober and had one beer on the 4th of July and never got drunk and never told anybody for months. Picking up a one day chip over and over makes many people just say f*ck it.
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