Once Again, the Debate will Rage (Representatives, Congress, illegal, heroin)

[rifleman]

After today's sad Manhattan shooting event, the various media had their anti-gun speed dial list in full use, rather quickly producing deeply concerned statements from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Handgun Violence. They totted out their usual non-truths (We want pre-purchase check, and we need to re-instate the Assault rifle Ban!" an so on. Plus, the vicious anti-NRA rhetoric was aflow and mostly incorrectly reported. what else is new, huh?

Now then: Some checkable FACTS for you folks:

1) First off, as an FFL (Federally Licensed Firearms dealer I MUST DO an FBI NICS (National instant Criminal Background Check System) check on ANY and ALL firearms sales. And no Handguns to folks under 21. This is the supposedly MISSING background check they insist they need to put into place.

2) The Assault Rifle Ban (which is what, by the way? It's a cosmetic style of rifle only... See my POINT #3 next) had NO EFFECT on the crime rate, which actually, according to the FBI's Uniform Report on Crime for the years following the sunsetting of that ridiculous bill, went DOWN after the ban was lifted. Hmmm.

Why? Because your perpetrator of these crimes of outrage, ego-motivated revenge (like today's event;he lost his job in the Emp. St. Building on year go...) and a simple bank robbery or assault in a dark alley, does not want to go out and spend $1000 to $3000 for an "assault rifle", which is what one of these costs now:

http://markgreaneybooks.com/wp-conte...1/06/AR-15.jpg

3) Oddly, our otherwise educated folks persist in believing exactly what the media feeds to, and wants us to believe (Oh No! Say it isn't so!), and that is that assault rifles are full automatic.

(But of course, you keen citizens DO KNOW that full-auto rifles, or any full-auto (pull the trigger and it fires all the rounds until you let off on the trigger) firearm, are strictly illegal to own, right? Except without a very expensive Federal "stamp" and various permits, but still limited to only a few states!

Now, semi-auto rifle, just like this one...:

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com...80/acf5254.jpg

...can be fitted with it's usual 5, or a 10 round, magazine, which is rather quickly dropped out and another one slammed in. All semi-auto, (one pull, one shot) but it "looks" like a nice, "respectable" hunting rifle. Whatever that term means...

So anyhow, the problem with this morning is not firearms per se, as the blowhard media would love us to all bow down to and just believe {after all, they said it!], but rather, that people have gotten entirely used to their job situation room the past 20 years, and they got truly comfy in their jobs, perhaps not having to work very hard at all.

But then their positions have since become redundant, and were replaced by automation or simply a more efficient process. Big biz has learned to streamline their ops, and have also moved some process components (like manual labor) overseas since our unions here have negated the ida of working hard...

(right up to the shift buzzer sounding (at the GM plan I visited [I worked for them in management], the UA clowns were prepping to leave their positions a full 30 min before the end of the shift. They also have at least one union meeting a week that also takes an hour [a "safety" meeting no less!]).

So, many of these folks have now lost their jobs, often when they are nearing their imagined retirement with full bennys, but then they are summarily turfed out. Then they don't find work for >>a year. And they won't look in the mirror to see the real culprit or even innocent victim, and want to make a final statement.

Or, they have recently lost out in a hard-battled divorce settlement, or have lost their savings to those Wall Street Thugs.

Plus, our culture celebrates violence. Take a look at many TV shows, or the most recent Batman movie, or any of the hugely violent new war video games. What do you see? Yup! The total glorification of firearms. And of mayhem and shotgun murders as an acceptable form of social exchange.

So let's say we could wave our magic and and make all firearms literally disappear from America. Would all forms of violence cease? Magically, juss like-a-dat? Nope: not frickin' hardly, and surely you will all agree with that!

nope: they'd just shift to knives, as they have in Britain (the knife-related crime rate tripled almost immediately after the law-abiding* Brits turned in all their old family heirloom engraved double bbl'd shotguns and old WW-I Webley Revolvers. What a political hoax that was. And the short-lived Firearms Registry Act in socialist Kanada, recently stopped and all records turfed because all it did was cost money, with no tangible results AT ALL, to the horror of the commi.. I mean liberal activists up there.

You see, try as you might want to, you cannot legislate human behavior, especially when it's only the abhorrent type you wish to just conveniently stop. After all, far as I know, it' s already illegal to shoot people in the streets of Manhattan, but that didn't seem to stop this guy!

Best Idea: Let's pass an all-new law, the last one we'll ever need, that BANS BAD THOUGHTS!

No problems after that, right? Meantime, you folks who carry a near frantic hatred of firearms, any and all firearms, will just have to lump it, since the average American is in no mood to have the government, what with all they've shown us to be sooo very competent at accomplishing over the last 4 years {to be precise...how coincidental, huh?} to physically remove our legally owned firearms. The ones none of us have ever used to commit crimes with!

BTW, before the predictable knee-jerk reactions come pouring in here, I'm NOT a right wing gun nut Republican, just a thinking law-abiding citizen who also likes to go hunting, target shooting, and carrying for self defense against the psycho loonies that this society has created.

(And PS: right now there is no background check for being a loonie, unless you'e recently been released from "the home", and that information also has to get reported to the FBI, which does not happen yet.)

Good shootin', pardners!

[2nd trick op]

The really frightening part of this is that most of the central figures in the recent rampages have been either relative youngsters in the thrall of the media schlockmeisters, or burnouts in late middle age who have absolutely nothing left to lose.

And is any goody-two-shoes going to try to tell us that further gun-control laws will protct anyone when our cities are infested with gangsters well-schooled in thwarting the law? Prohibition didn't work, the 21-year drinking age doesn't work, the most effective weapon in the war on drugs is the employer-sponsored drug test; yet the delusion that "the government will protect us" continues -- it didn't at Columbine or Virginia Tech.

And I can also guarantee you that while thousands of guns temain secreted in urban jungles, should further misguided legislation come about, an equal number will be hidden in communities where sport hunting and responsible gun ownership are a tradition. The only difference here would be that the usual percentage of those "falling through the cracks" and winding up in the law's crosshairs would be responsible citizens.

[Clint.]

Media (and a few prominent outspoken proponents) make a lot of noise about firearm restrictions after events like this, but they are behind the times and preaching to an audience that is no longer there.

Sufficient political and public appetite no longer exist to experiment with this, and it's clear that experiments from the past have failed (just like outlawing crack and heroin failed to achieve intended goals). Most astute liberal leaning people have moved on to other issues and given up on this one. Calls for further legislation tend to come only from a few holdovers of relatively small jurisdiction, self-appointed minority representatives, and residents of high-crime urban areas and don't attract much widespread support.

[cb at sea]

A criminal will not be buying their guns through reputable dealers....and a ban or ID check will NOT stop them from obtaining weapons.

[Life-Surfer]

Guns don't kill people; the user of the gun is the one who does the killing. A rational person can be pushed to their limits and decide to buy a gun and go off on the people making their life a living hell. (a la jeffrey johnson) Therefore, gun background checks will not be able to predict how a person handles mental, emotional and physical stress.

[Chango]

Putting on my tin-foil hat, but this whole thing feels contrived and even planned. For 4 years the media was virtually silent on gun control; now all of a sudden random shootings are happening everywhere and there's a media $&!#storm over the subject!?

I'm sick of being jerked around by the manipu-media. Random shootings by crazies are horrible and unacceptable events, but is the situation terrible enough to sacrifice yet more of our freedoms to "the Man"?

HELL NO!!!

[dr74]

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Gun crime statistics by US state: latest data

How high is gun crime across the US - and which states have the worst figures? This is the latest data
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Gun crime map of America interactive Photograph: Guardian

How bad is gun crime in the US? The latest data from the FBI's uniform crime reports is out and it provides a fascinating picture of the use of firearms in crimes across America.
At the beginning of the year the shooting spree in Tucson, Arizona, that targeted congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords left six dead, including a nine-year-old child. But since then, the issue has been given scant attention.
However, the figures themselves are astounding for Brits used to around 600 murders per year. In 2010 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms.
The FBI crime statistics are based on reports to FBI bureau and local law enforcement. The figures are not complete - there are no stats for Florida on firearm murders and the data for Illinois is "incomplete". But even so it provides a detailed picture of attacks by state.


While the crimes to due gunfire has decreased, the numbers are still staggering.

I hear this all the time from friends whom are gun friendly..the saying "It is not guns that kill people it is people that kill people" Ok, but who is shooting guns? Last time I heard guns were not firing themselves, it was people whom were firing guns right?
Which is a ridiculous statement based on semantics. Of course common knowledge states that guns as of late do not shoot themselves but it is people that shoot the guns that cause the death of people.
There are those mostly hunters and the gop party that state that this is ridiculous?
Well how ridiculous is it?
There are laws put into effect and for some reason these laws do not seem to be working.
There is a waiting period until a background is done, does not work. These could be people that have no background but are unstable and have the intent to do harm and have done harm as can be seen in the paper.

There has been proposed mental evaluations before purchasing guns, has this been done?
There are firearms that are not secured by arms holders and their children get a hold of them?
Firearms that are illegally sold? What should we do?
Is it to be seen as drugs? To be bought illegally? Smuggled? And it should not be regulated?

What is to be done? Please tell me. My father has a firearm and we as a family do not where it is hidden because he is a true man and a man of the law...how responsible are others?

I am seriously asking for an answer. Why if these laws are in place do these spree killings keep happening? Gun shops not adhering to policy? I feel that they should be sentenced along with the killer.

If we are really talking about culpability..maybe then america will wake up.

[Stubblejumper]

Originally Posted by dr74

[cut]

What I find really striking about that map is the incredible geographical variance of assualts, as compared to the relatively low variability in gun ownership. Northern New England, and large parts of the Upper Midwest have rates as much as 100x lower than Tennessee or South Carolina.

That begs the question: What is the difference between, say, South Carolina and North Dakota? According to this Washington Post survey, North Dakota actually has a higher rate of gun ownership, but far, far less gun violence.

We can discount (legal, acknowledged) gun ownership as a factor in the differing violence between these two states. Perhaps culture or economics holds a more telling difference.

[Cyborgt800]

You want a British versus American gun/crime statistic?

How's THIS:
Americans gun ownership is 15 times moore than the British rate of ownership and less strict yet America only has 2.5 times the gun homicides.

That tells me that Americans are seven times more responsible with their guns!

Plus, if you take out the American cities with the highest gun crime rates IE the most strict gun controls, then the rate of homicides is about the same.

Now, take out the gun crimes in gun-free zones and its lower.
One thing these mass killings all have in common is they take place in gun free zones!

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by dr74

[list]While the crimes to due gunfire has decreased, the numbers are still staggering.

I hear this all the time from friends whom are gun friendly..the saying "It is not guns that kill people it is people that kill people" Ok, but who is shooting guns? Last time I heard guns were not firing themselves, it was people whom were firing guns right?

Which is a ridiculous statement based on semantics. Of course common knowledge states that guns as of late do not shoot themselves but it is people that shoot the guns that cause the death of people.
There are those mostly hunters and the gop party that state that this is ridiculous?
Well how ridiculous is it?
There are laws put into effect and for some reason these laws do not seem to be working.

There is a waiting period until a background is done, does not work. These could be people that have no background but are unstable and have the intent to do harm and have done harm as can be seen in the paper.

There has been proposed mental evaluations before purchasing guns, has this been done?

There are firearms that are not secured by arms holders and their children get a hold of them?
Firearms that are illegally sold? What should we do?
Is it to be seen as drugs? To be bought illegally? Smuggled? And it should not be regulated?

What is to be done? Please tell me. My father has a firearm and we as a family do not where it is hidden because he is a true man and a man of the law...how responsible are others?

I am seriously asking for an answer. Why if these laws are in place do these spree killings keep happening? Gun shops not adhering to policy? I feel that they should be sentenced along with the killer.

If we are really talking about culpability..maybe then america will wake up.

Good and thoughtful questions, dr74! Let's not forget that, given the US population of ≈350+M, the actual percentage of what you call spree killings ans hteir perpetrators what is it, about 5 - 10 or so, max, in the past few years?) is a remarkably small number, but it all still makes good media headlines, which is all that counts in America.

There will always be a man (usually) that wants to ignite the world and then gleefully watch it burn. He should use, of course, a Molotov for a far better tactical effect, but our society has truly glorified guns and their fantasy effect, in movies and games. If you watch the latest Tactical Games of wartime violence, it's truly staggeringly violent. Imagine what that does to our youngster's minds!

As I noted in my earlier post above, it's ALREADY ILLEGAL to randomly murder people, by whatever means, and yet... that hasn't seemed to stop ANYONE who wants to achieve that particular end-game, does it?

So let's realize we have a society out of control as far as effective management of it's abberant behavior cohort. The absolute number of such people is also growing along with our overall pop. numbers, so expect more of this sort of thing, and more brainless media retorts.

Now, we could also consider controlling the rampant and rabid media coverage of any of these events in the future, so that the perps will realize they wont' be getting off on their mental masturbation rampages.

I mean, why not? Let's get control of the Rabid Media Dog, OK?

After all, we already have 20,000+ firearms control-related laws on the books, and see how effective that's been. The idea of chasing down to the "n"th degree the possibility of any future shooting sprees by promulgating a new set of laws is staggeringly idiotic.

Never forget what Ben Franklin said about those who are willing to give up all their societal freedoms for some imagined tiny increase in security....

"“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”"