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Heels or a cocktail dress have nothing to do with being a woman.
It does to people obsessed with claiming that they are 'gender fluid/hip/wtf are they calling it today'.
Which highlights the hypocrisy and idiocy of all the 'gender movements.'
They take every possible stereotype and RAIL against it for same sex (ie, women should not like 'women' things) to the point that they want to raise girls as boys and boys as girls, and every TG takes on the stereotype of the opposite 'gender'.
And in the next breath they yell about how gender doesn't;t matter.
if it didn't matter there would be no 'gender agenda/movement' BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD CARE.
I shudder to think what would've happen to the girls we knew as 'tomboys' growing up. Probably shot up with hormones at age 5, scheduled for sex reassignment surgery at 14. All by tolerant and educated obsessed people fixated and obsessed with telling us how much gender doesn't matter.
And you would have a valid point if we were just talking about words or opinions. We aren't. There are real consequences for these ideas as they become part of law. You WILL allow your teen daughter to share a restroom with a 40-year-old man who wears a dress.
I don't have a teen daughter, but I'm a petite woman myself. I've shared public restrooms with not only trans people, but actual male presenting men in gender neutral public restrooms, and drag queens (who are generally not trans, but are actually men in dress for performance reasons.) I have not been assaulted, ogled, intimidated, or bothered in any way by any of them. I would love to cite you some sources that make the point that not only do trans people not assault anyone in bathrooms (predatory MEN do sometimes, usually very masculine presenting secret pervs like your conservative rural politicians and creepo priests) and not only that, but that actual trans people are the most vulnerable, far more so than your cis teen daughter is. Trans people are more at risk of being assaulted or murdered anywhere, let alone a public restroom, let alone one that doesn't correspond to the way they present. But the problem with showing you sources, is that no matter what sources I find, it's so easy to say, "I don't believe the mainstream news" or "That study is biased" or "I disbelieve" for any reason. I could also find sources from the right, that say the opposite. Which is the point of my rant, that you're gonna believe what you want, and so am I, and we can throw links at each other all day and it won't make any difference at all!
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You WILL allow your ex-wife to inject your 7-year-old son with hormones.
If your ex-wife has the sole ability to make medical decisions for your child, then you've made a very poor showing in family court, since rapists sometimes even have rights to their kids. Also, the youngest trans child to be started on hormone therapy in medical history, was 16. Yep. 16. And that was in Europe, not here. They may be permitted to start dressing a certain way, using a different name, going through the mandated therapy, but they don't just jump to, "OK I'm gonna shoot this kid up with hormones." If you find that a doctor has done that to your 7 year old child, especially against your wishes as the other parent, sue them.
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You WILL allow your male employees to wear heels.
Oh the horror. Heels were INVENTED by men, to be worn by men.
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Your daughter WILL have to compete against male athletes and that's going to be considered fair. This represents a tangible impact upon our society.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Let the sports medicine people and the ones who run the leagues figure that one out, and support it with science. If you aren't involved in sports medicine, and you don't run any sport league, then I really don't want to hear your hysterics or your pontificating on bone mass or lung capacity. Especially since there have been trans women who competed in sports and got defeated by cis women. Also? South Park might be right on a number of matters, like oh...Mormonism, maybe?...but I wouldn't use it as a yardstick for official policy of this kind. So if the experts determine, using data and not conniptions, that there's an unfair advantage, they can make those rules. If they can't find data to back it up, or they determine some point in a person's transition where any advantage is lost based on objective measures of the body, then who is gonna argue with that? No one.
And yeah, opinions DO represent a tangible impact on our society. Like when a trans daughter or son is killed because of rampant fear like what we see around here all the time. They're a lot more vulnerable than any of us, because of people who don't want them to exist, and argue that they do not exist in any valid way.
Which is why I'm on my side of this. Well, also because I actually know a number of trans people, so I don't come to this matter in ignorant fear. But see, my opinion and yours...it's a fart in the wind, man. Unless you've got big money or big force to back it up, no one cares. I mean...did I convince you of anything, here? Did I? The fact that I didn't, doesn't mean you're right any more than your failure to convince me of anything makes me right. Other people on the internet agreeing doesn't make either of us right, either. Not in any way that will convince the other.
[quote=Mishegas;57275905]And you would have a valid point if we were just talking about words or opinions. We aren't. There are real consequences for these ideas as they become part of law. You WILL allow your teen daughter to share a restroom with a 40-year-old man who wears a dress. You WILL allow your ex-wife to inject your 7-year-old son with hormones. You WILL allow your male employees to wear heels. Your daughter WILL have to compete against male athletes and that's going to be considered fair. This represents a tangible impact upon our society.[/QUOTE]
People are too attached to being tolerant and trendy to think logically and methodically about how changes like this affect society as as whole.
They cannot approach this in a rational manner. Because ... tolerant .. liberal ... trendy .. I'M AWESOME ... overpowers logic.
It does to people obsessed with claiming that they are 'gender fluid/hip/wtf are they calling it today'.
Which highlights the hypocrisy and idiocy of all the 'gender movements.'
They take every possible stereotype and RAIL against it for same sex (ie, women should not like 'women' things) to the point that they want to raise girls as boys and boys as girls, and every TG takes on the stereotype of the opposite 'gender'.
And in the next breath they yell about how gender doesn't;t matter.
if it didn't matter there would be no 'gender agenda/movement' BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD CARE.
I shudder to think what would've happen to the girls we knew as 'tomboys' growing up. Probably shot up with hormones at age 5, scheduled for sex reassignment surgery at 14. All by tolerant and educated obsessed people fixated and obsessed with telling us how much gender doesn't matter.
You know...I don't think you're all that knowledgeable on the issue. You have opinions, but I suspect, not a lot of knowledge on it. I don't either.
But I remember when MY son was going through stuff, and was eventually diagnosed with a form of autism, and so many people, including friends tried to tell me that his issues were discipline related.
And I just always thought "Even if a 100 people all say the same thing, it doesn't mean they're right. They don't walk in our shoes, and they don't know our story."
I don't know the struggles these families go through. I don't know how many anxious talks parents have together, worrying about their teen's mental health, and how many doctors and therapists they've taken their kids to, and how many times someone tried to cut themselves because of their anxiety and worry about being different, etc. And you don't either.
You know...I don't think you're all that knowledgeable on the issue. You have opinions, but I suspect, not a lot of knowledge on it. I don't either.
But I remember when MY son was going through stuff, and was eventually diagnosed with a form of autism, and so many people, including friends tried to tell me that his issues were discipline related.
And I just always thought "Even if a 100 people all say the same thing, it doesn't mean they're right. They don't walk in our shoes, and they don't know our story."
I don't know the struggles these families go through. I don't know how many anxious talks parents have together, worrying about their teen's mental health, and how many doctors and therapists they've taken their kids to, and how many times someone tried to cut themselves because of their anxiety and worry about being different, etc. And you don't either.
You have no idea what my knowledge base is. My comments still stand as basic truth.
People lose their minds over trying to support LGBTakjdbf ANYTHING without ever thinking of the ramifications of certain aspects of it.
It has gone too far. And that is WHY there is such a pushback against it. There is male and there is female. Anything else is utter nonscientific garbage politics.
I don't have a teen daughter, but I'm a petite woman myself. I've shared public restrooms with not only trans people, but actual male presenting men in gender neutral public restrooms, and drag queens (who are generally not trans, but are actually men in dress for performance reasons.) I have not been assaulted, ogled, intimidated, or bothered in any way by any of them. I would love to cite you some sources that make the point that not only do trans people not assault anyone in bathrooms (predatory MEN do sometimes, usually very masculine presenting secret pervs like your conservative rural politicians and creepo priests) and not only that, but that actual trans people are the most vulnerable, far more so than your cis teen daughter is. Trans people are more at risk of being assaulted or murdered anywhere, let alone a public restroom, let alone one that doesn't correspond to the way they present.
I think you missed the point I'm trying to make. We can have a rational discussion Spork, this isn't personal. I don't have a teen daughter, I was just offering examples. I think shared restrooms and locker rooms are a legitimate concern, especially for parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But the problem with showing you sources, is that no matter what sources I find, it's so easy to say, "I don't believe the mainstream news" or "That study is biased" or "I disbelieve" for any reason. I could also find sources from the right, that say the opposite. Which is the point of my rant, that you're gonna believe what you want, and so am I, and we can throw links at each other all day and it won't make any difference at all!
Well, then I'm not sure why you're here. You came onto a debate forum to rant about the fact that debate is pointless and meaningless? If so, that sounds foolish to me, but I would have to disagree. I'm here to express my viewpoints respectfully and hopefully, even if not able to change someone's mind, at least get them to consider the issue from a different perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
If your ex-wife has the sole ability to make medical decisions for your child, then you've made a very poor showing in family court, since rapists sometimes even have rights to their kids. Also, the youngest trans child to be started on hormone therapy in medical history, was 16. Yep. 16. And that was in Europe, not here. They may be permitted to start dressing a certain way, using a different name, going through the mandated therapy, but they don't just jump to, "OK I'm gonna shoot this kid up with hormones." If you find that a doctor has done that to your 7 year old child, especially against your wishes as the other parent, sue them.
I don't have an ex-wife either. I was just giving an example. But here's a link from the mainstream media:
Oh the horror. Heels were INVENTED by men, to be worn by men.
Again, you seem to be missing the point or deliberately ignoring it. Again, just offering an example. As we continue to cast out a wider net and include more people into "protected classes" that is going to impact other people and how our society functions. If my top salesman suddenly decides he's a woman and starts wearing dresses when meeting with clients, that seriously impacts me, my business and all of my other employees. But the law would prevent me from firing him on that basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Let the sports medicine people and the ones who run the leagues figure that one out, and support it with science. If you aren't involved in sports medicine, and you don't run any sport league, then I really don't want to hear your hysterics or your pontificating on bone mass or lung capacity. Especially since there have been trans women who competed in sports and got defeated by cis women. Also? South Park might be right on a number of matters, like oh...Mormonism, maybe?...but I wouldn't use it as a yardstick for official policy of this kind. So if the experts determine, using data and not conniptions, that there's an unfair advantage, they can make those rules. If they can't find data to back it up, or they determine some point in a person's transition where any advantage is lost based on objective measures of the body, then who is gonna argue with that? No one.
It doesn't require an expert or scientific evidence to demonstrate that men are generally physically stronger than women. Any child with eyes can see that. But that's the issue: There is no yardstick! By the standards being advocated, one is male or female simply because they declare they are. You really don't see a problem with that? I think this is where you lose a lot of reasonable people who are otherwise compassionate toward those who are different or struggling with problems. Is age just a construct? Can one just declare at 40 years of age that he is 12 years old? Why not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And yeah, opinions DO represent a tangible impact on our society. Like when a trans daughter or son is killed because of rampant fear like what we see around here all the time. They're a lot more vulnerable than any of us, because of people who don't want them to exist, and argue that they do not exist in any valid way.
Which is why I'm on my side of this. Well, also because I actually know a number of trans people, so I don't come to this matter in ignorant fear.
But that's not a mere opinion impacting society, that's a criminal action. I don't think anyone doubts that criminal actions impact society, but I've not seen anyone around here or anywhere express the opinion that killing a trans person is acceptable.
You have no idea what my knowledge base is. My comments still stand as basic truth.
People lose their minds over trying to support LGBTakjdbf ANYTHING without ever thinking of the ramifications of certain aspects of it.
It has gone too far. And that is WHY there is such a pushback against it. There is male and there is female. Anything else is utter nonscientific garbage politics.
Sorry, but your comments stand as your opinion, not "basic truth".
I think you missed the point I'm trying to make. We can have a rational discussion Spork, this isn't personal. I don't have a teen daughter, I was just offering examples. I think shared restrooms and locker rooms are a legitimate concern, especially for parents.Well, then I'm not sure why you're here. You came onto a debate forum to rant about the fact that debate is pointless and meaningless? If so, that sounds foolish to me, but I would have to disagree. I'm here to express my viewpoints respectfully and hopefully, even if not able to change someone's mind, at least get them to consider the issue from a different perspective.I don't have an ex-wife either. I was just giving an example. But here's a link from the mainstream media:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...rl-called-lunaAgain, you seem to be missing the point or deliberately ignoring it. Again, just offering an example. As we continue to cast out a wider net and include more people into "protected classes" that is going to impact other people and how our society functions. If my top salesman suddenly decides he's a woman and starts wearing dresses when meeting with clients, that seriously impacts me, my business and all of my other employees. But the law would prevent me from firing him on that basis.
It doesn't require an expert or scientific evidence to demonstrate that men are generally physically stronger than women. Any child with eyes can see that. But that's the issue: There is no yardstick! By the standards being advocated, one is male or female simply because they declare they are. You really don't see a problem with that? I think this is where you lose a lot of reasonable people who are otherwise compassionate toward those who are different or struggling with problems. Is age just a construct? Can one just declare at 40 years of age that he is 12 years old? Why not? But that's not a mere opinion impacting society, that's a criminal action. I don't think anyone doubts that criminal actions impact society, but I've not seen anyone around here or anywhere express the opinion that killing a trans person is acceptable.
The Washington Examiner is owned by Clarity Media Group, which is in turn owned by Philip Anschutz, who is an American billionaire entrepreneur who describes himself as a “conservative Christian.” Anschutz is also the owner of the right leaning Weekly Standard and has donated millions of dollars to right leaning causes, including anti-LGBT groups, such as the Family Research Council, which has been labeled a hate group.
So there's that.
Then, because I wasn't going to just dismiss the story entirely, I decided to look at it from another side. Not sure if you have?
...Up until this point, he had been allowed to see his kids once a week for two hours and on the first, third, and fifth weekends of each month since 2017, though court testimony indicates he frequently skipped his visitation days. He also launched a social media campaign to “save” his child from the supposed harm of transitioning. For a child of Luna’s age, this is solely social and consists of keeping her hair long, choosing her own clothing, and using a feminine name and pronouns.
However, the conservative campaign spread incorrect fears that Georgulas was seeking to immediately “chemically castrate” the child — a misinformed, scary-sounding reference to hormone medications that would suppress Luna’s testosterone production and replace it with estrogen, which would typically be years in Luna’s future, according to standard medical guidelines. The only plans Georgulas had, according to court transcripts, was to take Luna to a Children’s Health clinic for transgender kids in Dallas. There, they would discuss a plan for potentially starting her on puberty blockers, which are reversible, in the next few years if Luna’s gender dysphoria persists.
So this story has been twisted, to freak you out.
The Mom, by the way, is a pediatrician, and she's gone on the record saying she isn't thrilled with her child's transgenderism, but she feels she's going the path of least harm by affirming Luna's persistent expression of femalehood. The child began pushing to wear dresses at age 3, and at age 5 was insisting that she was a girl, not a boy.
Sometimes I wonder... Do people think that the only reason that our sons who grow up men, content in their maleness, are that way, is that we put them in blue clothes as babies, bought them trucks, and indoctrinated them into it, and vice versa for girls, with pink dresses and dollies? Do you think, if you dressed a female child in masculine or neutral clothing and didn't press any feminine attributes upon said child, that they would grow up thinking that they are male? At what point does a person have a concept of what, who, they are...even the beginnings of one...is any of it biological, or is all of it training?
Some of these genders simply refer to others. For example: Aerogender- see evaisgender.
Why add more names to something that already has a name? Is it just to fatten up the list? Is it because every person who feels a vague identity quickly slaps a new name on it without research? Is it proof that these gender identities are so haphazardly thrown together that now there is multiple identities with numerous names?
I like to think of myself as a semi tolerant individual, but; a gender identity that feels cold and snowy (Frostgender)? Or Eldrigender- A gender which is dark, nebulous, and ultimately unknowable. Unknowable? Eldrigender? Like Eldritch? Like Lovecraftian unknowable beings? Is there really a gender that uses H.P. Lovecraft as a reference?
OK, I have respect for those people who have unique and alternate identities. Variety is the spice of life after all. But c'mon. There is not hundreds of gender identities. This list is a ridiculous attention seeking gimmick, that unfortunately works against the very real concept of gender identity.
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