Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Capitalism is a terrible system except for every other choice
Paraphrasing Winston Churchill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornintheSprings
We should still have capitalism with a few changes. Universal Basic Income and Universal Healthcare are surely needed in the United States. Bring those two programs on board and the issues caused by any pandemic or civil unrest will be minimized.
Both are a very big step towards communism, beyond socialism.
If anything, what you're experiencing right now is socialism/communism (same ish, Lets argue)! Waiting on long lines to get into the market, just to have empty shelves and scarce items. WAITING for the government to give you money instead of having the ability to go to work or resume the business you have been putting your energy and money into.
I had a friend tell me this exact same non-sense. "Oh this is what happens when capitalism runs amock" non-sense, when in fact the government crashed through the damn roof, and SWEPT the carpet from right under us and told us we can't work, shut our businesses down and of course, we face stiff penalties and/or prison time if we decide to stay open.
Our fellow citizens and neighbors have become snitches,eyes, ears and informants for the government for violating "social distancing". And other trivial matters. Citizens have became very wary of each other and treat each other like we have the cooties but put ALL our trust in the government and "experts".
This is it right now, Solcommunism! You should be ecstatic right now OP!
If anything, what you're experiencing right now is socialism/communism (same ish, Lets argue)! Waiting on long lines to get into the market, just to have empty shelves and scarce items. WAITING for the government to give you money instead of having the ability to go to work or resume the business you have been putting your energy and money into.
I had a friend tell me this exact same non-sense. "Oh this is what happens when capitalism runs amock" non-sense, when in fact the government crashed through the damn roof, and SWEPT the carpet from right under us and told us we can't work, shut our businesses down and of course, we face stiff penalties and/or prison time if we decide to stay open.
Our fellow citizens and neighbors have become snitches,eyes, ears and informants for the government for violating "social distancing". And other trivial matters. Citizens have became very wary of each other and treat each other like we have the cooties but put ALL our trust in the government and "experts".
This is it right now, Solcommunism! You should be ecstatic right now OP!
Americans have become VERY obedient and compliant over the years, I read peoples comments online, whining and crying and calling their governors tyrants who are imposing 'unconstitutional laws' on them....but at the same time, these people are fully compliant with those laws!!?
Its almost like they want 'someone else' to be patriotic and right this wrong, or they want the federal govt to step in and FORCE the states to re open...Is this really America?
I have a feeling, if the govt had attempted such a thing in decades past, the politicians, police, and anyone else enforcing these kinds of laws, would have a gun shoved in their face faster than they could turn around.
Americans have become VERY obedient and compliant over the years, I read peoples comments online, whining and crying and calling their governors tyrants who are imposing 'unconstitutional laws' on them....but at the same time, these people are fully compliant with those laws!!?
Its almost like they want 'someone else' to be patriotic and right this wrong, or they want the federal govt to step in and FORCE the states to re open...Is this really America?
I have a feeling, if the govt had attempted such a thing in decades past, the politicians, police, and anyone else enforcing these kinds of laws, would have a gun shoved in their face faster than they could turn around.
I don't know if it's time for guns or if it ever is. But I agree with everything else. My somewhat lame excuse is that I am in a regulated profession, law. If I get a disorderly conduct or New York Public Health Law Section 12, the consequences are far more severe than the $2000 statutory fine. I risk a referral to the grievance committee for professional violations by attorneys. One of the problems I have with many laws is that certain people are struck by a wet noodle for violations; others have their lives wrecked. I think that there should be more widespread disobedience. If enough others disobey I would likely join.
But please understand I cannot go first on this one.
Oh you must be one of those folks who wants state governments to open back up, right?
If you're one of those types who is protesting at various state capitals... I am sorry but I disagree.
The reason why we can't open up right now is because it would create a lot of sick people who would overwhelm our already over stressed hospitals. We need a lot more testing of people before we can do that.
As for universal income, I sort of agree with this. According to various experts many jobs are going to disappear in the next 20 to 30 years as they are going to become entirely automated -- performed by robots... so what will people be doing then for jobs?
I think that the concept people are thinking of, is that if most people did not literally have to work to survive, no one would.
Some of the people who cling to this idea, that I know, also believe that the only reason that people don't steal, loot, rape and murder, is that they are told by the Authorities (whether human laws or religious ones) that the consequences for them personally, the punishment, would be terrible. To me that just is them saying, "If I thought I could get away with it, I'd love to be vicious and harm others, take whatever I want with no thought to how it hurts anyone."
I also know a lot of of people who believe that they at least, would uphold decent ethics and standards of behavior, even without a looming threat of punishment, because they care about living in a decent society, and have no problem doing their part. I tend to align more with this, it also follows, I don't mind the idea of being taxed, if I can see clear benefits to society from the uses of my tax money. I like living among intelligent, educated people, I prefer to have smooth roads to travel on, and I would rather my government offer temporary help (or permanent in some cases) to the poor and struggling, as opposed to seeing them scratching out a rough living on the streets, or in cities made of whatever trash they can scavenge. I also don't mind paying fair prices for things that I buy, but I don't want the money I put into a business, fattening the CEO beyond all sanity while hundreds or thousands of the company's employees live on the brink of starvation and homelessness. We've outlawed unethical labor practices before, like when we took children out of the sweatshops and mines...I do think that sometimes the government has some business regulating the activities of powerful players in the free market.
Unfortunately, what sucks is that I don't much trust the barons and tyrants of either business or government. I wish there were more transparency and accountability for both. But there it is.
However, it is worth mentioning that an able bodied person who thinks that if they got enough free money to sit at home and do NOTHING, they would and anyone would... I don't really think that's accurate. For one thing, it's horrible for your mental health to have no feeling of purpose and to be generally unproductive. What about the labor intensive, unpleasant, Mike Rowe style dirty jobs that no one really is passionate about doing? Are those people forced into them by threat of starvation and death? Is that the only reason we have anyone willing to do those jobs at all? The ones, I assume, that cannot easily be automated? If so, does that really sound like freedom? It seems like a kind of slavery, to me. But I think that Americans would still work, because while the government, even at the extreme end of "socialism" we'd be able to even consider (which is really just expansion of social programs under a democratic/capitalist system) would theoretically provide "survival" level assistance, Americans tend to want more than that. We want luxury, entertainment, and style in our lives. Most would be willing to work, to do more than simply survive. I mean think about it...if you, any of you, could eke out a basic living on part time hours, but had the choice to THRIVE and enjoy life on full time hours, what are you going to choose?
I actually think that if my basic survival were assured, if the government provided the means for shelter, food, water, education and healthcare, to me... I would be a far MORE productive person. I wouldn't be in the field I'm in now, but I'd be doing work that I was passionate about, and I'd probably do a lot more of it, because I'd feel I had the choice, to take a risk and be an entrepreneur or a creative professional, with no fear of how I'd make it, or provide for those who depend on me, if I did not have a secure paycheck and health insurance plan. There is a good chance that my plans would succeed and I would be even wealthier than I am now, if I did not feel forced to choose "mediocre but safe" instead.
I find it interesting how many people believe that social assurance of basic needs, means less freedom. I think that it means more. Bit of a Maslow's Pyramid situation if you ask me.
I agree with everything you said. I used to vote Republican but anymore I am a firm Democrat. Why? Because I have friends from other countries and after discussing and comparing our health systems, I realize there are some really big changes that America needs to make.
The Republicans seem unwilling to make changes to the health system that would benefit people.
In fact all I hear from the GOP is excuses as to why they can't fix healthcare in America -- "It's too expensive. It will increase the deficit" and crap like that but yet they have no problem increasing the Defense budget or giving more tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires.
So yeah that's why I vote Democrat anymore.
Your friends lied, you have been radicalized by leftists.
I was born and raised in the UK, their socialized system is a moribound deathtrap.
We should still have capitalism with a few changes. Universal Basic Income and Universal Healthcare are surely needed in the United States. Bring those two programs on board and the issues caused by any pandemic or civil unrest will be minimized.
Your friends lied, you have been radicalized by leftists.
I was born and raised in the UK, their socialized system is a moribound deathtrap.
As opposed to here, where even someone like me who has excellent coverage, if I were to get a serious condition like cancer that took a long time to treat, I might be unable to do my job, I could lose my job, eventually, and in the short term, I'd have access to COBRA coverage which costs massively more and covers much less (at a time when my income is suffering and medical bills are piling up) and then that would leave me stranded, too, and I would have to burn down all of my savings and assets before I'd qualify for any assistance.
Medical bills are one of the top causes for people having to declare bankruptcy in America.
I know a lot of people who don't bother with regular, preventative healthcare, who will not see any kind of a doctor, unless they think they might die, because they cannot afford the bills. I would do a lot to avoid ever having to ride in an ambulance because of the cost. Even WITH a good plan, my son's medical bills have been in the thousands for necessary procedures and care in the last couple of years--at IN NETWORK, covered providers. If I did not have any coverage, it would have been many times more.
What burns my biscuits is that at one point during Obama's presidency, I was curious about this health insurance marketplace, so I logged in to poke around and see what the costs were. I was stunned. "Affordable?" To whom?? I guess, it's affordable compared to anyone with no access to employer paid premiums but even taking into account what I pay and what my employer pays for my coverage, what I saw on the marketplace was more expensive than that total amount. Considerably.
Americans have become VERY obedient and compliant over the years, I read peoples comments online, whining and crying and calling their governors tyrants who are imposing 'unconstitutional laws' on them....but at the same time, these people are fully compliant with those laws!!?
Its almost like they want 'someone else' to be patriotic and right this wrong, or they want the federal govt to step in and FORCE the states to re open...Is this really America?
I have a feeling, if the govt had attempted such a thing in decades past, the politicians, police, and anyone else enforcing these kinds of laws, would have a gun shoved in their face faster than they could turn around.
It's BOGUS to me the amount of American citizens who have made the government their best friends since this has happened. No sort of personal responsibility, no sort of common sense, no thinking for themselves, no QUESTIONING of any, because if you do question; you become vilified!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeFan007
Oh you must be one of those folks who wants state governments to open back up, right?
If you're one of those types who is protesting at various state capitals... I am sorry but I disagree.
The reason why we can't open up right now is because it would create a lot of sick people who would overwhelm our already over stressed hospitals. We need a lot more testing of people before we can do that.
As for universal income, I sort of agree with this. According to various experts many jobs are going to disappear in the next 20 to 30 years as they are going to become entirely automated -- performed by robots... so what will people be doing then for jobs?
Yes, yes I do. And whats the criteria for when we open up? Until the "curve is flattened"? Its useless because you can guarantee that the rise in cases WILL happen. Now does that equal some deaths? I would bet it'll be a lower number of deaths and that's unfortunate of course but it doesn't mean all these hospital deaths will even be attributed to this CCP virus. And we're not going to be able to test every single individual and we can't have the government baby sit us and tell us when its safe to play outside. It's just not functional. People will have to take personal responsibility and preventive measures if/when they go out.
It's unrealistic to think that we have to be responsible for every single person. Sorry but we can't. If I was old and sick or even if I am at my ripe old age of 33 right now, and I am sick and dying; I don't expect the world to stop nor would I want the world to stop. I wouldn't want people to stop what they're doing.
It's not to mitigate any concerns, awareness, or the situation. However, throughout human history and evolution we've always figured out ways to deal and function with threats. Those whom are truly at risk, by all means stay home but for those of us whom are of regular, general health, let us work! Our chances of surviving the virus are very high.
It's BOGUS to me the amount of American citizens who have made the government their best friends since this has happened. No sort of personal responsibility, no sort of common sense, no thinking for themselves, no QUESTIONING of any, because if you do question; you become vilified!
Yes, yes I do. And whats the criteria for when we open up? Until the "curve is flattened"? Its useless because you can guarantee that the rise in cases WILL happen. Now does that equal some deaths? I would bet it'll be a lower number of deaths and that's unfortunate of course but it doesn't mean all these hospital deaths will even be attributed to this CCP virus. And we're not going to be able to test every single individual and we can't have the government baby sit us and tell us when its safe to play outside. It's just not functional. People will have to take personal responsibility and preventive measures if/when they go out.
It's unrealistic to think that we have to be responsible for every single person. Sorry but we can't. If I was old and sick or even if I am at my ripe old age of 33 right now, and I am sick and dying; I don't expect the world to stop nor would I want the world to stop. I wouldn't want people to stop what they're doing.
It's not to mitigate any concerns, awareness, or the situation. However, throughout human history and evolution we've always figured out ways to deal and function with threats. Those whom are truly at risk, by all means stay home but for those of us whom are of regular, general health, let us work! Our chances of surviving the virus are very high.
Taking what you have said in your post here into consideration, are you starting to recognize this is not what it appears to be on the surface? Anyone with any sanity, looking at the Govts response, would naturally conclude there is something else going on (behind the scenes), its not the virus that is the real threat.
Thats why I think all these states that are in the process of re opening things...they DO NOT have peoples best interest in mind, doing this...people will be freed suddenly, go out and the infected numbers will skyrocket, FORCING TOUGHER restrictions to be imposed, ( I have a sneaky feeling, this is their goal)
Im not sure of the ultimate agenda or who exactly is orchestrating this, but I do know for a fact, state and federal govts are scrambling to do anything and everything they can to maintain control and order right now! Even if that means lying directly to our faces on TV and giving us 'false hope'.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
