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Tearing down statues doesn't do anything of the kind. It is an act of vindictiveness which only serves to increase the polarization of America.
Many believe the whipped up frenzy of mob violence is the result of outside influences seeking to destroy American strength. Russia, for example, has had a long history of disinformation campaigns.
Will destroying vestiges of America's history make past slavery go away? Of course not! If it did, we would all be in favor of it.
Trashing the memories of our past presidents for participating in activities that have now been deemed unacceptable helps no one. They were human, and humans make mistakes. All of us!
Maintaining the statues is just as polarizing.
However, I do agree that statues to American presidents are appropriate. But not Confederate traitors, other than on battlefields and in museums.
In his book on American history from a different perspective, A People's History of the United States, author, Howard Zinn begins his book with a reference from the ships log that tells exactly how Columbus felt about the native population he and his crew encountered on their voyage. Zinn felt that the time of Columbus was an appropriate point to begin American historical documentation simply for the reason that we all had that time as our own starting point for US history as it was taught in public school.
Columbus' men would take to the backs of native men and ride them just as one would ride an animal, they cut off the arms and ears of these island men as a competitive show of just how sharp their sabers were. Columbus asked the church priests if the natives had a soul and therefore be considered as human. Times were different then, but just as we have known the truth of things for quite some time, people in Columbus' time knew he was more than just another adventurer, he wasn't all that well regarded by his own countrymen.
It's been adequately pointed out in earlier posts that Columbus had dutifully documented his and his crews excessive brutality when dealing with native peoples. The bloody brutality was carried out in keeping with the notion of the natives being a sub human species-- in the view of the Europeans. Even so, the brutality was especially atrocious. So, knowing what we know--Is it any wonder that many would take down those Columbus statues? The entirety of this issue has an underlying aspect to it that speaks to our mythical US history as the official preferred version.
We like to think of our history as a story of US greatness, US infallibility, and moreover, a story of compassion, and justice, coupled with notions of a nation bent on insuring these tenets as human rights. But the truth of America's past is uncomfortably close to the modern day reality of class and race differences, when considering the lop sided spread of national prosperity. I'm not a big fan of the mob mentality as a force for good, but, I would like to see cooler heads prevail, and the taking down of America's icons of a sordid past-- Done quietly.
Tearing down statues is one more way liberals tell conservatives that they no longer have power in America, and that liberals are now "in charge".
Conservatives still have control over much of the wealth and power in this country, so for liberals, statue destruction is a hollow victory.
Protestors get tired and go home. Entrenched power (and money) stands strong with or without statues.
I think you are giving the liberals/leftists/progressives/socialists/communists (whatever they are calling themselves these days) too much credit.
They just take advantage of the fact moderates and conservatives do not engage in violent protests, rioting and organized mayhem.
Of course the irony with the left is they claim to hate totalitarian governance, yet they themselves implement it any chance they get.
Additionally the hypocrisy of claiming to be anti-fascist is belied by their fascist tactics of burning books, destroying art/buildings, suppression of free expressions/speech, etc., etc., etc.
There is little doubt that if they ever gained power in this country, our constitutional republic would head to the ash heap of history.
At least as long as American history would exist that is. That, before history itself would be scrapped by them.
Then the mere utterance of America/USA would be made a crime.
As to Columbus, he was no saint, but also a product of his time. Any future generation can look back through a myopic modern lens to find some of our history unsavory.
Sadly one thing they don't do is put things in context. For example the "native population" has been portrayed as peaceful civilized people. While certain tribes might have been less violent and even somewhat peaceful, many were violent savages that would kill, rape, mutilate, etc.
So naturally when dealing with people like that, you cannot use harsh language.
While certain tribes might have been less violent and even somewhat peaceful, many were violent savages that would kill, rape, mutilate, etc.
`
But do you not see the irony in calling the indigenous population defendiing their land against foreign invaders "violent savages" while the invaders themselves, who are documented as raping, mutilating, and killing, you excuse as being "products of their own time"?
Christopher Columbus simply did what he had to do when he encountered a primitive and hostile population in the New World. The conquistadors like Hernan Cortes did even worse things to the native populations. That is how you conquer a continent. War isn’t supposed to be pretty.
It is ridiculous to judge the past based on the values we hold today. People lived and thought very differently back then.
I think you are giving the liberals/leftists/progressives/socialists/communists (whatever they are calling themselves these days) too much credit.
They just take advantage of the fact moderates and conservatives do not engage in violent protests, rioting and organized mayhem.
Of course the irony with the left is they claim to hate totalitarian governance, yet they themselves implement it any chance they get.
Additionally the hypocrisy of claiming to be anti-fascist is belied by their fascist tactics of burning books, destroying art/buildings, suppression of free expressions/speech, etc., etc., etc.
There is little doubt that if they ever gained power in this country, our constitutional republic would head to the ash heap of history.
At least as long as American history would exist that is. That, before history itself would be scrapped by them.
Then the mere utterance of America/USA would be made a crime.
As to Columbus, he was no saint, but also a product of his time. Any future generation can look back through a myopic modern lens to find some of our history unsavory.
Sadly one thing they don't do is put things in context. For example the "native population" has been portrayed as peaceful civilized people. While certain tribes might have been less violent and even somewhat peaceful, many were violent savages that would kill, rape, mutilate, etc.
So naturally when dealing with people like that, you cannot use harsh language.
`
It seems as though you've missed quite a bit of the conversation that deals with the heart of this issue. And that would be the fact of so many who aren't out rioting, looting etc, being absolutely accepting of our need to stop honoring those who's deeds do not deserve that honor. That's the bottom line in this, to and fro, over the likes of Columbus and those in the confederacy leadership.
Most Germans, but not all, have the decency not to honor Hitler or any of his henchmen, many other despotic types have had their likeness struck down in contempt of their rule, is that wrong? I think your choice of words says quite a bit about the suspicion that this is all about politics--in your view..
Last edited by jertheber; 06-30-2020 at 02:08 PM..
They just take advantage of the fact moderates and conservatives do not engage in violent protests, rioting and organized mayhem.
You just negated everything you posted by this comment right here.
I think it may help to do a bit of non biased research. There have been plenty of instances of violence by conservatives.
Christopher Columbus simply did what he had to do when he encountered a primitive and hostile population in the New World. The conquistadors like Hernan Cortes did even worse things to the native populations. That is how you conquer a continent. War isn’t supposed to be pretty.
It is ridiculous to judge the past based on the values we hold today. People lived and thought very differently back then.
Ummm, I don't see too much judgement of the past as much as I see the judgement of existing monuments
honoring monsters from the past--which are offensive to, "the values we hold today." Christopher Columbus was not at war, he was adventuring for gold, and any other economic booty, including enslaving young girls for money. I cannot think of any reason not to remove these iconic testimonials to those who butchered their fellow men without any remorse.
Whether one is a liberal or conservative doesn't matter when considering these things. So much of what those statues represent transcend our political differences, and in fact, their removal with all our agreement, could easily suffice as an olive branch from both sides to the other. Some acts of men just aren't worthy of our remembrance except to serve as a reminder of just how far we've come from our not so humane past.
If removed by vote of the people where they are situated, I don't care. The guy didn't discover North American and still wonder why we celebrate CC day.
However, a mob should not be allowed to tear down ANY statute; regardless of affiliation. That is mob rule and when the mob rules, justice is not given to the people.
Agree it should always be decided by a vote and never by vandalism. If I had a vote, it would be to take statues honoring Columbus down. Facts and strong evidence of his violence, crimes, torture and cruelty have been provided.
To those offended by statues being taken down (even lawfully, not by vandalism), will anyone here go on record and criticize voters in German cities for taking Hitler's statues down?
but do you not see the irony in calling the indigenous population defendiing their land against foreign invaders "violent savages" while the invaders themselves, who are documented as raping, mutilating, and killing, you excuse as being "products of their own time"?
Agree! +1!
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